Lilian Pyles interview, 16 April 2014

Abstract

Lilian Pyles is the older sister of Marjorie Pyles-Hearst. They moved to Cleveland from Kentucky, and later on in her life Lilian moved to New York City. She moved back to Cleveland in her later adult years. In this interview she reflects on mostly pleasant experiences growing up in Glenville and attending Miles Standish, Empire Junior High, and Glenville High School. She discusses favorite places in the neighborhood, including Scatter’s Barbecue, shopping trips to downtown department stores, and venturing up East 105th Street to catch a glimpse of the Glenville riot in 1968. She discusses Leo’s Casino, including an especially memorable concert when Aretha Franklin sang all night during a snowstorm until patrons’ cars could be shoveled out.

Interviewee

Pyles, Lilian (interviewee)

Interviewer

Gabb, Julie (interviewer)

Project

Project Team

Date

4-16-2014

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

64 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Lilian Pyles interview, 16 April 2014" (2014). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 999118.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1044

Related Resources

Project Team @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Julie Gabb [00:00:01] Right. We are here in Cleveland Heights, Ohio, with Lilian Pyles, and today is April 16, 2014. Could you please tell me about yourself?

Lilian Pyles [00:00:15] Born and raised? That kind of thing about myself? Okay. I was born in Springfield, Kentucky, a little town outside of Louisville, population about 1500, then and now. We moved to Cleveland when I was little. Started elementary school, Miles Standish in the Glenville area. Went to Empire Junior High School and went to Glenville Senior High School. Right now I work as a casting director and I cast features and commercials and the like. And I’ve been in the industry for maybe about 40 years, 30 years, sorry, about 30 years here in Cleveland and New York and L.A. Lived in New York for about 25 years. Moved back to Cleveland to be closer to my parents because they were getting older. So living here in Cleveland Heights and loving it, it’s nice to be back in Cleveland. All my friends who moved to New York have moved back to Cleveland, so we’re all here together again, which is great. But, yeah, the movie industry has been good here in Cleveland. There are more and more films coming here every year. I have the great opportunity to be able to do a great deal of them. Met a lot of great people. But I come from good stock, a good background and traveling. I enjoyed it. I love New York very much. It’s very crazy, very brutal, but it’s a lot of fun. So much art there, theater there, dancing there. It’s very creative city, and I love it very much.

Julie Gabb [00:02:09] Alright, so when did you move from Kentucky to Glenville?

Lilian Pyles [00:02:15] Moved from Kentucky in the kindergarten and went to kindergarten at Outhwaite, which is off of Woodland, for starting school there. And then we had to move because both my parents worked and we went back to Kentucky. The kids went back to Kentucky with my grandparents and went to school there. My parents came, came back here to look for a house. Once they found the house and we all moved. That’s when I started Miles Standish in the third grade.

Julie Gabb [00:02:54] And what was your reason for, what was your family’s reason for moving to Glenville?

Lilian Pyles [00:03:00] Well, it was a great area. It was biracial. It was a wonderful, wonderful neighborhood. You’ve heard the saying all the time, it takes a village. This was a village. All the kids that lived in that area went to those schools, those three schools, Miles Standish, Empire, and Glenville. Our teachers lived in the area. It was nothing to come home and see – the assistant principal and my dad were good friends - there was nothing to come home and see him there with my dad talking. My mother worked at the post office. My father was a social worker at that time. So Glenville area was a beautiful, beautiful area. It was no burned-out houses, no raggediness. Everybody took pride in their homes, in their yards. If a kid, somebody else’s kid got in trouble, they were corrected by any parent on the street, and they accepted that. So again, that was the village raising those kids. It was a wonderful area. It was safe. Everyone had nice homes. Everybody had pets. You know, summertime, we could stay out till the streetlights came on and we all had to be in. So there were no kids hanging around, no cars driving up and down the street all night long. It was just a wonderful, calm area.

Julie Gabb [00:04:22] And so you said that you went to Miles Standish. Can you tell me about your experience going there?

Lilian Pyles [00:04:31] Miles Standish was a great school. We had all sorts of extracurricular activities. We had dance, we had theater. We did a lot. We went on a lot of field trips. We had excellent teachers. The teachers cared about you. We had penmanship where they don’t have penmanship anymore, where they teach you how to write and teach you how to print. I think the kids teach themselves now. There are so many activities, extracurricular activities at Miles Standish that they don’t have anymore. So I was very lucky to be a part of that Miles Standish group of people. It was a good school. We walked to school every day because it was right around the corner, which made it good. That way everybody could watch you on the way to school. It was a good place to be. Very good.

Julie Gabb [00:05:29] What extracurriculars did you do at Miles Standish?

Lilian Pyles [00:05:34] Volleyball, baseball. I was a tomboy, so I played a lot of sports. I liked the dance classes. It was just very enjoyable. It was a lot of fun. It helped to acclimate you to other people, to other genres, to other styles, other cultures. And that was one good thing about the Glenville area is that all types of people lived in that area. A professional baseball player lived up the street from us. A doctor lived two doors from us. School teachers, social workers, principals, psychiatrists, homemakers. It was a variety. It was wonderful.

Julie Gabb [00:06:21] You said that you did like dance at Miles Standish? Were you involved in any plays or musicals there?

Lilian Pyles [00:06:30] I was in one play. I spoke at my graduation [laughs] from elementary school, which was a privilege. The dance was a lot of fun, and most of the dance was like cultural dancing, other ethnicities, other types, all types of music. So we were exposed to a lot of different things. We were exposed to worldly things and things that we understood. They helped us to understand that. So coming in contact with different people from all over the world, it was easy. It was fun. It was a lot of fun.

Julie Gabb [00:07:14] What was your favorite dance at the time?

Lilian Pyles [00:07:17] We used to do, like, we would do, like, the jig, and we would do, you know, that dance that they do where they click their heels a lot and dance on their toes? It comes- It’s a dance company that comes here now maybe once or twice a year. I can’t remember the culture, but that one I liked the best. And we used to square dance. You know, it sounds square, of course, but we used to do all types of dancing, so it was fun.

Julie Gabb [00:07:55] And you said that you did, like, different cultures dances as well? What were, like, some of the cultures that you’re exposed to with those dances?

Lilian Pyles [00:08:08] Wow. Um, what is- It’s a jig, and it’s- I can’t think of the country that it comes from. Kind of foggy right now with the dancing. I could see us doing it, but I can’t remember the name of it because we used to do it in the gym, and it would be groups of us, like a square dance, but I can’t remember the name or the type of dance.

Julie Gabb [00:08:45] Were you involved with the Miles Standish garden at all?

Lilian Pyles [00:08:49] No. No, I wasn’t. We had a garden at our house, so I did my garden at home, but we were able to. The garden was shared by all, whether you worked in it or not. Everybody shared in the gardens. It was fun.

Julie Gabb [00:09:07] So were you able to take home, like, vegetables and produce some back garden?

Lilian Pyles [00:09:12] Yes. Yes. Yes.

Julie Gabb [00:09:18] What did Miles Standish actually look like? I’ve always heard about, but I never actually, like, heard [inaudible].

Lilian Pyles [00:09:24] It’s still there. It’s still an elementary school. I think it’s Mike White Elementary School now. Empire is still there. Glenville has since been torn down, but Miles Standish is there. It’s a one level school. Excuse me. Has a- Has a- We called it a big side and the little side. Big side was where the older kids went, and the little side is where the baby kids went. But it’s all one level. It’s quite large. It’s next to this beautiful, open field called Farmer’s Yard, where we had garden, where they have gardens, beautiful fenced-in area, playground on both sides, a little side, and the big side. Very nice school. Very nice. And it still is. It’s all brick. And they’ve taken very good care of the school and the grounds for it to still be there. It’s in very good condition. I’m assuming it looks good anyway. [laughs]

Julie Gabb [00:10:26] So what are some activities that you did as a child in Glenville?

Lilian Pyles [00:10:30] Wow. Like I said, I was a tomboy. I used to play baseball in the playground at Empire’s playground, because you could see the playground from my house. Baseball, kickball, volleyball. Every Friday we go swimming at the Fairfax Community Center. My dad would take us. It was family night. We would all go swimming on Friday nights. It was wonderful. Whatever sport was going on, I was part of it. I really was. I love sports, and I love playing. I love being outside. And I had good friends who, we all did the same thing. So that helped ride my bike, go swimming, go hiking. It was just wonderful. It really was.

Julie Gabb [00:11:20] Did you play with the sports teams in school or also, like, neighborhood- [inaudible]

Lilian Pyles [00:11:27] CHECK!!!! You know, neighborhood games. In school I played volleyball. I played basketball one year, but it was kind of rough. Girls played a little rough. I didn’t like it. [laughs] But, you know, kickball, we played that every day, all the time in the schoolyard, which was a lot of fun. Yeah. So it was all sports that I liked.

Julie Gabb [00:11:54] Was it like coed play?

Lilian Pyles [00:11:56] Yes, coed play. Always co ed. Always.

Julie Gabb [00:12:01] You said that you grew up on Empire?

Lilian Pyles [00:12:05] Glenville.

Julie Gabb [00:12:06] Okay.

Lilian Pyles [00:12:06] I mean, Columbia Avenue was the street. Empire was one street over where Empire Junior High School was. It still is, but it’s no longer a junior high school. I think it’s a- I forget what kind of school it is, but they teach different skills. You know, it’s no longer a regular curriculum for school. It’s a special skills school, but it’s still there.

Julie Gabb [00:12:35] And how was your experiences at Empire Junior High?

Lilian Pyles [00:12:40] Empire Junior High was a growing up time for me. Going from elementary school and the elementary school, Miles Standish, was overcrowded. So when I was in the 6th grade, instead of being at the elementary school, we had our 6th grade classes at Empire, at the junior high school, because Miles Standish was overcrowded. So I went to the junior high school in the 6th grade. That was quite an experience because I was an elementary school young lady, and I, you know, this was a different part of my life that I was transitioning to. That was a growing period for me. You know, it was a transition period. I transitioned into being a young lady and doing more of my work and reading more. I began to read more and more books. And my dad was a schoolteacher when we were little in Kentucky, and then he became a social worker here in Cleveland, and he always encouraged education. He always encouraged us to read. And when I was little, I can remember, you know, if I was being punished, he’d make me read a book or make me read something and give him a report. He never raised his voice. He never put his hands on us. He was a gentle soul, always, but he always encouraged us to read. And education, he always pushed the education. He had his masters from Case Western Reserve, and he was an adjunct professor there and a field advisor. So he always encouraged us to read and further our education. So I had to get good grades. I didn’t do good in spelling in elementary school, but in junior high school, I did much better because I began to read more, but my spelling was horrible in elementary, but it got better.

Julie Gabb [00:14:43] Were, like, the junior high school, like smaller, like in class size compared to Miles Standish?

Lilian Pyles [00:14:49] Yes, not real, not too much smaller. And Miles Standish, maybe 20 kids in a class, I’m just assuming. And then junior high school, they didn’t get much bigger, um, high school either. You know, we had reasonably amount of kids in our classes. It wasn’t like 40 kids in a class. We had nice sized classes because we had plenty good teachers. Teaching should be and was then a very honorable position. It was a very important position because you held the life of so many young people in your hands. You had to teach them and you had to guide them, and you had to show them the way. Not only did you teach them how to read and write, you had to teach them how to act, how to present themselves. I mean, I know you learned that at home, but you also learned that in school. So the classes were pretty reasonable, the size.

Julie Gabb [00:16:01] With like the elementary school, junior high school. I heard that, like, it splits off in some way. Do you know?

Lilian Pyles [00:16:07] What do you mean split off?

Julie Gabb [00:16:08] As in, like, there was like many people, from my understanding, that went to Miles Standish, and then there were like multiple junior high schools, and then they all met up together at Glenville High School.

Lilian Pyles [00:16:20] Yes, it just depends on where you live. But the majority of the people I went to Miles Standish with, 99% of them in Miles Standish went to empire because they were neighborhood schools. They were like within for us on Columbia, Miles Standish was two blocks south and Empire was two blocks west. And they were just all right there in a big circle. So the majority of the kids went from one school to the other to the other. And then when they got to Glenville, some went to private high schools, some went to Collinwood. It depended on their curriculum, but most of us stayed together. All my friends, my close friends that I went to school with, that I was in class with, we went to elementary school, junior high, and high school. Together. College is where we branched out. But some of my good friends, we’re still good friends and we went to Miles Standish. I met him in the third or fourth grade, and we’ve been friends ever since.

Julie Gabb [00:17:40] Sorry. So, going to Glenville High School, were you able to be at the old Glenville at all?

Lilian Pyles [00:17:54] Yes, that’s where I graduated from, the old Glenville.

Julie Gabb [00:17:58] Versus- So you never actually experienced new Glenville High School?

Lilian Pyles [00:18:01] No. No.

Julie Gabb [00:18:01] Okay, can you tell me, like, what the old Glenville High School looked like?

Lilian Pyles [00:18:10] It was about two or three floors, all red brick. Big, beautiful windows. White frame windows. Floors squeaked. Big gyms. Just a lot of fun. It was an old school, but we rocked and rolled there. The teachers were excellent. We had a dress code. At Glenville High School, we never wore jeans to school. We never wore- Girls wore skirts and dresses. Guys wore slacks. They never wore jeans. We may have had a dress-down day once a month where you could wear jeans. The boys would wear jeans. No sneakers. They wore shoes. We wore shoes to school. We didn’t wear tennis shoes. We had extracurricular activities. We had gym where you changed into a gym suit and when gym was over, you took a shower and got dressed and went to class. Now they don’t. We just had so many extracurricular activities. Student council. I was in student council. I was a gym leader. I was a cheerleader. I was in different, other different clubs. We were in school all day long. You know, you go to school in the morning and you’re there all day long and you learned something. And you had a certain grade that you had to abide by. And we had detention and we had after-school classes, and we had. Teachers took time to individually teach you if you needed it. It was a wonderful place. It really was. And they don’t have it anymore. And the kids are being deprived of that. And that’s unfortunate because that helped to build your character. It did. You have relationships with your teachers. The teachers dressed every day. You know, the male teachers wore suits and ties, and the female teachers wore dresses and they wore suits and they dressed nice. They didn’t dress like the kids. We had to uphold so many rules and regulations just that governed ourselves. Not so much our work in the school, but our character. And that helped build our character.

Julie Gabb [00:20:46] So what were, like, some of what could you think of as, like, what was like the strictest rules, I guess, compared to now, comparatively?

Lilian Pyles [00:20:57] Dress? You couldn’t wear short skirts. They couldn’t be too short. You had to be neat and clean. Every day. I remember once I wore a skirt, and it was too short, and I knew it, and I don’t know why I did it, but I did it. And I’m in the hallway and I shouldn’t have been. I should have been in my class. And the assistant principal saw me, took me to the office and said- She was going to send me home to change my clothes, and she was going to call my mother to let her know I was coming home. But I asked her not to call my mother because my mother worked at night at the post office, and she was asleep during the day. And I asked her, please don’t call her. Just, I’ll go home, change some clothes and come back. She called. Her mother didn’t like it. I got in trouble, of course, but not so much for the short skirt, but the fact that she called him woke her up. But the dress code, they were really, really, really serious about that. And the kids loved looking good. They loved dressing every day. It was enjoyable. It really was, you know, again, it helped build character. It helped expose us to- You know, we grew up with the saying, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. So, you know, when you’re in certain environments, you dress a certain way. Now, the kids wear the same thing all the time. The boys don’t wear their own suits. They don’t have button-down shirts. Girls don’t have decent length skirts or good, you know, nice shoes. It’s all about the tennis shoe, the sneakers, the Jordans, the jeans, the baggies, the halter tops. It’s all about that, that we dressed like that when it was appropriate, but in school, it was never appropriate, so. And you could be physically punished. You could get your hands swatted. You could get your bottom swatted, the boys, if you were bad. But when they took the physical discipline out of the schools, that’s when we lost the kids, because now they’re not afraid of anything. And we, you have to have a little fright in order to bring you into reality. You can’t, you know, kids can’t rule the world. They can’t run it because they’re not mentally able. We were taught to respect people, to respect our elders, to respect our teachers, to respect our neighbors, to respect our friends. We were taught respect, and that’s just not in it anymore. They just don’t- They just don’t have it. And it’s really frightening for the kids because it’s hard on them trying to grow up. It’s very difficult.

Julie Gabb [00:23:42] Were there any teachers that stood out in your mind that, like, influenced you in any way?

Lilian Pyles [00:23:47] Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. There were a number of teachers, but the main teacher, her name was Gwendolyn Willis, and she was a biology teacher. And when I first went there, I really wasn’t that good in biology, but I became her helper. You know, I’d help her after class and she would help me. And I began to love biology and I did well in it. But she was- She influenced me in so many ways. She was so classy and very smart and just worldly and kind and soft-spoken and- Yeah, she was big influence. I mean, she was. Mister Clayton, who was our assistant principal, was a big influence. He was a good friend of my father’s. He was a gentleman at all times. And he was always clean and he always had a suit and tie on. And he was always gentle. And he was very tall, very big. Not fat, but just very tall. So he carried a present and everybody respected him and loved him for that. Yeah, he was a cool guy.

Julie Gabb [00:25:01] What were some things at Glenville High School that you think set apart Glenville High School from other schools?

Lilian Pyles [00:25:10] The love we had for one another, the respect we had for our student body, the respect that we had for our teachers. We knew our teachers well. They exposed us to so many different things outside of the school. Field trips, concerts. You know, they would take us places. They would talk to us about different things, worldly things. Glenville was great. It really was. It was a pleasure. We didn’t have a security gate to come in. You didn’t have to be searched. Nobody had- None of that existed in our school. None of it.

Julie Gabb [00:25:57] Were you at, were you present for when MLK or Malcolm X came to Glenville at all?

Lilian Pyles [00:26:05] No, I wasn’t there. No, not at all.

Julie Gabb [00:26:12] You said earlier you were a cheerleader. Were there any memorable games that you cheered for that stood out in your mind?

Lilian Pyles [00:26:20] You know, I can’t pinpoint any one game, but cheerleading was the highlight of my life. We had a ball. We loved it. We had fun. Even cheering at the football games in the snow. We were- We were a close-knit group. We loved what we did. And Mrs. Mitchell, who was head of the cheerleaders, would do things like take us places, have a pajama party at our house with all the cheerleaders. I don’t know how she did it, because we stayed up all night talking, but it was such a pleasant trip for us. Cheering was awesome. It really was. You got a lot of respect. You had a lot of fun. And it helped. It really helped in school. It helped with your schoolwork, it just helped in so many ways.

Julie Gabb [00:27:23] How did- Was, I guess, how did Glenville influence your career choice?

Lilian Pyles [00:27:31] Well, I- When I was going to Glenville, going to the school, you mean? How did it? I wanted to move to New York. I always knew that I wanted to be in some kind of entertainment genre. I knew that that influenced me to get more education, to go to college, to want to do better, to want to be bigger, to want to go farther, you know, to want to learn more. That helped me. Our teachers encouraged us to go to college or get a good job. They encouraged us to be smart, to learn, and to use that in our lives. They helped us with that a great deal. They helped us to go to college. They helped us to look for schools that we wanted to go to. They helped us make decisions that were really vital in our lives at that time. They took time with us as individuals, not as a group, but individually. They took time to do that for us.

Julie Gabb [00:28:44] What does, sorry to get off topic, but what does a Tarblooder mean?

Lilian Pyles [00:28:50] Tarblooder is a- He’s a robot. He was a robot, and he couldn’t be beaten. He was tough. So that’s- [laughs] That’s why. And over the years, the Tarblooder look has changed. But he’s always been a robot. Yeah, he was bad. He was big and bad.

Julie Gabb [00:29:14] Did you guys have, like, a mascot costume at all forever?

Lilian Pyles [00:29:17] No, we didn’t. Do we have a mascot? I don’t remember having a mascot. I don’t.

Julie Gabb [00:29:28] What were some of the places that you frequented businesswise, in Glenville?

Lilian Pyles [00:29:36] What do you mean?

Julie Gabb [00:29:37] What were some of the businesses that you went to for, like, going shopping?

Lilian Pyles [00:29:43] Oh, okay. Downtown was flourishing then. All the department stores were downtown. The nice restaurants. I mean, there were restaurants in different neighborhoods, but downtown was the focal point of Cleveland then. People dressed to go downtown. A mother wore gloves and a hat and gorgeous outfits, and so did all the other ladies. They dressed according to where they were going. It was a pleasure and fun, but downtown was happening. Now it’s coming back. You know, there’s so many malls and different things in different areas now. But then downtown was the focal point of everything.

Julie Gabb [00:30:27] So where would you go in downtown?

Lilian Pyles [00:30:30] Like Higbee’s, Halle’s, Sterling Lindner Davis, Bonwit Teller. All the good stores, favorite stores. There were several restaurants. I can’t. There was the Forum, which. The building is still there, I think it’s on 9th and Euclid. It’s an office building now, but it was a very nice place to eat. And there were different restaurants downtown, but, yeah. Higbee’s, and Halle’s, Sterling’s, Bonwit Tellers. It was my favorite store.

Julie Gabb [00:31:01] How often would you go downtown?

Lilian Pyles [00:31:06] Maybe once a week, something like that. Yeah.

Julie Gabb [00:31:12] Did you go to any places to eat in Glenville at all?

Lilian Pyles [00:31:17] Well, in Glenville, 105th Street was rocking and rolling then. Scatter’s, Perkle’s Deli had the best corned beef in town. Best milkshake. Scatter’s had the best barbecue. There were several other clubs on the 105th, but we were all too young to go to those when we lived over there.

Julie Gabb [00:31:44] Did your parents go at all to them?

Lilian Pyles [00:31:46] Some of them, yes. Mm hmm.

Julie Gabb [00:31:49] Do you remember which ones, I guess?

Lilian Pyles [00:31:50] I think Tia Juana was one. My, the jazz. Oh, boy. It was a jazz club in Glenville area that my mother would take me and my brother to, and we weren’t old enough to be in there, but she would take us anyway, and she would just tell us just to sit there and be quiet, because if you talk, then they’ll know your age. But we would see people like Dinah Washington. Oh, my God. So many great jazz musicians used to come there. And there was a place called Leo’s Casino that we used to go to on Euclid Avenue. And that was the Motown era, where all the Motown groups would come to Leo’s Casino and perform. And if you were underage, they would give you a lei to wear around your neck when you came in the door so that they wouldn’t serve you drinks. But we would go in the bathroom and take the leis off [laughs], but we wouldn’t get drunk or anything, but, you know, we’d have little foo foo drinks. They didn’t have anything in them, but Leo’s was the best. Every artist from Motown that you could imagine was there, and we saw them, everyone. You know, Aretha Franklin, Richard Pryor. Oh, my God. The Temptations, the oJs, just- It’s an endless list. And that was truly wonderful.

Julie Gabb [00:33:28] What was the most notable performance like you?

Lilian Pyles [00:33:32] Oh, my God. Once we went to see Aretha Franklin and Lou Rawls opened up for her and I think, was it Richard Pryor? I can’t remember, but I know Aretha Franklin. And it was a snowstorm that night. We didn’t know it until the show was over. We’re getting ready to leave. We can’t get out the door because there’s so much snow. So she brought us back in and performed all night long until they could shovel us out. Sure did. They performed all night long. Yep. Absolutely. That was the highlight. It truly, truly was. Yeah. She sang all night long. She sat at that piano and played and sang. She entertained us. It was wonderful. She didn’t have to do that. She could have gone the dressing room and went to sleep. She sat at that piano and sang all night long. And as you come in Leo’s, the first room was the bar, and in the middle of the bar was a stage, and the O’Jays were like the local group that performed there every week, so they were always there. And then you go into another room was a bigger room, and it’s a big stage and tables and chairs, and that was the second room where they had different performers every week. But Leo’s Casino is nothing like it ever. It’s a wonderful place.

Julie Gabb [00:35:00] How is Richard Pryor?

Lilian Pyles [00:35:02] Oh, my God, he was so funny. He was just- He was the best he has thus far. To this day. He is still the best comedian ever. Just- He could say two words and they. When you’re hysterical. He was wonderful. He was. He was funny and he was wonderful. And he talked about things that you related to, kind of people he related to. He had all these different characters that he performed, and he was just entertaining. He was wonderful.

Julie Gabb [00:35:35] You mentioned earlier about Perkle’s, and you said they had, like, the best corned beef. Like, what made that stand out sandwich?

Lilian Pyles [00:35:45] You know what? I don’t know what made us. It was delicious. And I’m a vegetarian now, but I wasn’t then. And on Saturday, my mother would go to Perkle’s and buy us slab corned beef and bring it home, and she would get a loaf of rye bread to go with it, and the mustard, and she would get that on the weekend, and we would. And she’d put it on the stove and we’d just make sandwiches until we blew up. But they had the best corned beef. [laughs] It was delicious. It was. And it was a nice place. The people were courteous, and the service was good. The food was excellent. They had the best milkshakes. Oh, my goodness. So Perkle’s was the number one corned beef place in Cleveland at that time.

Julie Gabb [00:36:33] Also about Scatter’s. Did you know Scatter at all?

Lilian Pyles [00:36:40] Yes, everybody did. Everybody in the neighborhood did, because he was always there. He was always around. You know, he was a big man in town. He had the best barbecue. I used to get a shoulder sandwich [laughs] and French fries, and they used to have these big vats that they cooked the french fries in, and they were- That was awesome. It was the best barbecue ever.

Julie Gabb [00:37:04] Did you go to any of - I heard Scatter had, like, birthday parties every year - did you ever go to any one of those?

Lilian Pyles [00:37:11] No, I wasn’t old enough to go to his parties. I just used to go to his restaurant. That was good enough. I didn’t care about a party. I just wanted those ribs. Yeah, but he was. He was a man about town. He was. He was very nice. You know, he was into a lot of things, I’m sure. But the thing that I knew him best for is for his barbecue.

Julie Gabb [00:37:41] Did you go to church at all?

Lilian Pyles [00:37:43] Yes. Mm hmm. We went to St. Philip Neri on St. Clair. We went there for years. When we first moved to Cleveland, we went to St. Edward’s on Woodland, and then when we moved to the Glenville area, we went to St. Philip Neri Catholic Church.

Julie Gabb [00:38:03] And are there any, like, memories of St. Phillip’s at all?

Lilian Pyles [00:38:09] You know, church was just a calm time. It was very pleasant and very calming and very relaxing. I didn’t understand a lot of it because the mass was always in Latin, and when they changed it to English, I was so glad. I said, now I know what they’re saying. But I appreciated the calmness that it brought to my life during that time.

Julie Gabb [00:38:41] Something different. But were you present at all during the Glenville riots?

Lilian Pyles [00:38:48] Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I was present. And we went up to 105th, and we heard about all the ruckus and stuff. Like idiots, we got in the car and drove up to 105th, and it was pretty bad. It was, you know, that we saw a lot of the army and their jeeps driving around with their guns, and we didn’t stay too long. We weren’t in it. It was just a few blocks from us. But, I mean, we were in the neighborhood, so we stayed in pretty much. But one day we snuck up there to see what was going on, and it wasn’t pretty. And then we came back home, but we didn’t take part in it. We didn’t do anything in it. We just saw it. And then we went home. [laughs] We got away from it, but, yeah, which was unfortunate.

Julie Gabb [00:39:44] How were you present at all for the Hough riots?

Lilian Pyles [00:39:49] When were the Hough riots? In the sixties?

Julie Gabb [00:39:55] Yeah.

Lilian Pyles [00:39:56] Yeah. Well, yes, I was here, but, no, I didn’t. I didn’t go to Hough for any reason at all during that time, for the riot or anything. I wasn’t interested in, you know, I wasn’t that eager to see fighting or burning or any of that. I couldn’t relate to it anyway.

Julie Gabb [00:40:17] You said earlier that your family move up from Kentucky.

Lilian Pyles [00:40:21] Mm hmm.

Julie Gabb [00:40:23] Was there any sort of discrimination that your family faced in Glenville versus Kentucky?

Lilian Pyles [00:40:31] No, not in Glenville. In Kentucky, yeah. Horrible. You know, that was one of the many reasons why we left. But my parents wanted a better life for themselves, and in turn, gave us a better life. And my father witnessed a lot of discrimination, but- And so did we. But it wasn’t to the point where you see on TV where it’s just excruciating pain and misery all the time, and you always have to be careful and that kind of thing. I mean, you know, people here would call you out of your name and you fight, and then when you’re done fighting, then it’s over. You know, It’s not. You didn’t go home and get a gun and come back. You didn’t fight again the next day. You got over it, and you worked it out, because in Glenville, you know, we had white neighbors, we had Spanish neighbors, we had all kinds of neighbors. We had Black neighbors, you know, we had all kinds, and we all lived there together. But outside of that little pocket, of course, we ran into a lot of things, you know, restaurants, different stores. But the stores, the department stores that we shopped at downtown never had a problem. Bonwit Teller’s, never had a problem. You know, you went in, you tried it on, you liked it, you paid for it. It was that simple. And the salespeople respected that. And of course, you know, there were little, little things that people did, little things that they. But you got to be like a duck in the rain. The water just rolls off your back. You know, you can confront it or you can deal with it, but you move on. It was the way of the world, and so much of it hasn’t changed now. It’s just the way the people are, and you just have to realize that. And you pick your battles. You don’t, you know, those kind of things now. It’s old. Move on. It’s done. We get it. If you don’t like it, then you move or you leave. Yeah, it’s, you know, we- To the day we die, we’ll still be confronted with people like that, because there are people that are being nurtured to be that way. And it’s unfortunate, you know, the parents are that way. They teach the kids to be that way. You see it on TV now, and it’s unfortunate for the kids because they’re gonna miss so much of the world. They really are. But that’s on them. I’m good. [laughs] I’m fine. It makes me no difference, ever. It never really has. And I’ve never understood what the big deal was. You know, why are you so angry at me? I don’t get it. You don’t even know me. It’s just the way I look? Give me a break. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s just a waste of time and energy.

Julie Gabb [00:43:56] Did you ever face any personal discrimination at all, any acts towards you?

Lilian Pyles [00:44:08] You know what? I’ve been Black a long time [laughs], so it’s- You know what? To be very honest, I mean, I just let her roll off my back. I really do. I still see it. Of course I do. You know, I’ve been in environments where they look at you funny or they contradict what you say, or they can’t believe that you’ve done this or been here, or they can’t believe you’ve been educated or you went to this college or- You know what I’m saying? It’s just always people like that, but they don’t really faze me anymore. They really don’t, because I don’t care. You know? I really don’t. It’s- You are what you are. You didn’t choose that. You didn’t. Before you were born, you didn’t say, okay, I’m gonna do- I’m gonna be this- I’m gonna be this color. I’m gonna be this tall. You know, I didn’t have a checklist. I didn’t have a choice. I’m good, really. My parents raised us like that. They. And they were both born in Kentucky, so it was really bad when they were there. But they didn’t teach us that. They didn’t teach us hate. They didn’t teach us bad words, horrible names to call people. They didn’t teach us any of that. None of that. My dad, in his work as a social worker, as a schoolteacher, as an adjunct professor, he’s always had friends of all ethnicities. And my mother, she worked at the post office. She had a hard time because she had a redneck supervisor that gave her the blues. But when she came home, she was fine. You know, I’m not there, I’m good. But they never taught us hate, ever. And I’m so grateful for that because I see people that hate, and they don’t know why. And it ruins your insides. It hurts your heart, takes your breath, makes you sit down and say, whooee, and for what? But, yeah, they never taught us hate, ever.

Julie Gabb [00:46:18] You mentioned that you had neighbors of different ethnicities. Did that, like, that neighborhood makeup change at all, like, from your childhood to your, like, adolescence?

Lilian Pyles [00:46:33] No, it stayed the same. The white doctor that lived two doors from us. He lived there until he passed away, until he got old and passed. No, it really didn’t change.

Julie Gabb [00:46:48] Did you see any sort of white flight overall in Glenville?

Lilian Pyles [00:46:54] Not really. The white people that were there when we moved there were there. They didn’t fly out. They didn’t leave because of who was there in the neighborhood. It was a pretty professional neighborhood. You know, the people who lived on our street had good jobs. You know, a lot of them were well-educated, worldly travelers, many doctors on the block, many educators on the block, business people on the block, factory workers, you know, people that respected their neighbors, took good care of their homes and their yards and their driveways and kept things swept and cleaned. And it was just, you know, nobody really cared who lived next door to them. As long as they took care of their place and were nice, that was fine. It was after I graduated from Glenville. We were there a few more years, but it didn’t, it changed many, many years later. But the flight, the people who were there stayed there.

Julie Gabb [00:48:22] Were there any, like, businesses that closed during the time or overall? Like, did it flourish?

Lilian Pyles [00:48:27] You know what? 105th was pretty lucrative. It was pretty busy. There were a lot of good things going on. We had neighborhood stores like Mister Williams where you got the penny, where you got the penny candy and good milkshakes and good hot dogs. We had Watson’s Cleaners where everybody went. They were there forever. We had a supermarket on the corner. It pretty much stayed the same until I moved away. And then, you know, it began to go down a little bit. But the majority of the homes that are in that area are still good. People still take care of their places. Of course, there’s been a lot of flight out of the neighborhood. You know, it’s gone down in some areas. I wouldn’t want to live there anymore. I still have friends that live in the area. I still go see them. You know, this got pockets of badness, but it also has pockets of goodness. A lot of the older people are still there. They never move. They’re not going to move. Yeah.

Julie Gabb [00:49:43] What differences do you see between Glenville then versus now?

Lilian Pyles [00:49:48] Oh, wow. Big difference. There’s not, that doesn’t seem to be that camaraderie anymore. Now my friends that still live in the area, their neighbors are cool, but, you know, maybe across the street they’re not. Maybe somebody moved in the neighborhood and doesn’t care about it and doesn’t take care of their homes. You know, that exists now it does, which is unfortunate. East Boulevard is still beautiful. All those big homes are still beautiful. Cultural Gardens are well taken care of. You know, all those houses over there are gorgeous. They’re big and people take good care of them.

Julie Gabb [00:50:34] Did you go to University Circle at all when you were a child?

Lilian Pyles [00:50:39] Yes, we used to go to Severance Hall a lot, to the concerts. We went there for school concerts, and we also, my parents took us. Yeah, that was a good thing about, you know, the museums were good, the art museum. We used to go all the time and walk out, walk around the park by the pond. Yeah.

Julie Gabb [00:51:06] I’ve heard of the phrase the Gold Coast. What does the Gold Coast mean?

Lilian Pyles [00:51:11] The Gold Coast is on the west side. That’s. It’s on Lake Boulevard. It’s where the, you know, where the restaurant. What is it? There are. It’s a row of condo buildings. They’re big buildings. They’re gorgeous. And Pier W is in that building. That’s the Gold Coast. That’s what we used to call the Gold Coast. You know, it’s just a lake, coastal, fabulous area.

Julie Gabb [00:51:53] Did you go to any neighborhoods outside of Glenville?

Lilian Pyles [00:52:00] Yes, Mount Pleasant. We have friends in Mount Pleasant area that we used to go visit and hang out with, but pretty much, we stayed pretty much in Glenville.

Julie Gabb [00:52:16] And how did you get around? By car.

Lilian Pyles [00:52:19] By car. When I started going downtown by myself, I’d take the bus. I could go shopping. I always had a job as far back as I could remember growing up in Glenville. I used to shovel snow. I used to rake leaves. I wash people’s cars. I’d go to the supermarket for the elderly in the neighborhood. We used to have these sisters, these older women, older white women, and we used to call them the cat ladies because they had a house full of cats. And they had- And they used- They liked me. And I used to go to the store for them all the time. And they would have me come in their home while they gave me the list and gave me my money. And they had, like, pillows all over the house, and every pillow had a cat. And they used to take their cats out. They put them in a- They had a baby buggy. And they take the buggy. Yeah, they put the cats- The cats would stay in the buggy. They take the cats out for a walk in the baby buggy. So we- Everybody named them the cat ladies. Cat hair was everywhere, but they had beautiful cats. And. Yeah, I used to go to store for them all the time, but I- So I always had money in my pocket. And my parents taught me that, you know, because I always wanted so much I’d see something I want. They said, well, you get your money, you can buy it. So then that’s what I would do. And then when I got old enough, well, I had to have a work permit. I started working at the store in downtown called Petrie’s, and I used to spend all my money that I made in Petrie’s, but it was my money, you know, my parents taught me how to be independent, so. But, yeah, I took the bus. Then when I got old enough, I got my driver’s license, and I drove. My parents always had two cars, so we always- They would let us use their car. And then one day, I bought my own car. I bought this Morris Minor. It’s an English sports car. It’s a little boxy car. And I bought it on the west side. It was an ad in the paper. Then this man was selling his son’s car because he was going to college, and he couldn’t take the car with him to school, and he sold it for $150. And I drove that car. It was a stick, and I didn’t know how to drive a stick. And I took a friend of mine with me to drive it back, and then he taught me how to drive a stick, and then I got good at it. And then my second car, when I was in New York, my car that I bought, there was a stick. It was pretty easy afterwards, but at first it was rough. I was tearing it up. But I had my own car, so we always had transportation. If we didn’t have it, one of our friends did, you know, we all hung out or went to a party or something. We all piled in the car and rode with each other, so that was fun. But, yeah, we always had some kind of transportation, which was cool.

Julie Gabb [00:55:20] What did you do at Petrie’s?

Lilian Pyles [00:55:22] Sales girl. Mm hmm. Sales girl, you know, and I used to do the stock. I was very organized always. So I would do the stock and list all the things, you know, you have to keep track of the inventory. So I would check it in and check it out. But, yeah, I was a sales girl.

Julie Gabb [00:55:43] What did Petrie’s have?

Lilian Pyles [00:55:45] They had girl clothes, cute little skirts and little dresses and blouses and little frilly things, you know, cute outfits. No jeans and sneakers, but just outfits that were cute, you know, ladylike, very, very feminine things, which was great. And they were very affordable. And they had layaway, so that always helped.

Julie Gabb [00:56:12] Where is Petrie’s located downtown?

Lilian Pyles [00:56:15] Downtown on Euclid, next door, a couple of doors down from Higbee’s on Euclid. It was a cute little dress shop or clothing store for girls.

Julie Gabb [00:56:34] Did your parents go to any jazz clubs or pool halls at all?

Lilian Pyles [00:56:38] Not pool halls, but they- Jazz clubs. There were several. There were some downtown. There were some in the Glenville area. One of them, I can’t think of the name of it that they used to go to all the time, but they were- They liked going out. They liked their jazz. They loved their music. Mother would go with her girlfriends. Dad would go with his guys, and then the two of them would go together with other couples. And they liked having fun. They liked going out and they liked having fun. We had always somebody there with us. They never left us at home by ourselves. We had a relative who came to Cleveland from Kentucky and stayed with us for a while, you know, because both my parents worked. So they were always. So someone who was always at the house when we came home from school, somebody was always there. Come home for lunch, somebody was always there. So we always had supervision. They always made sure of that.

Julie Gabb [00:57:49] And I guess, like, what did you do at nights when you were like an adolescent, like, for fun?

Lilian Pyles [00:57:58] Stay in the house. [laughs] We could go outside and play till the street lights came on and then we had to come in. But adolescent nighttime stuff, you know, my parents would take us places, or, like I said before, my father would take us to the community center on Fridays for swimming. You know, we always did family things. You know, they always took us places. And when my mother shopped, she would take one of us at a time. She never took all three of us. All three of us at the same time. But they- They took us. They introduced us to a lot of different places. We’d go to amusement parks and Euclid Beach. We’d go to movies. They supervise us pretty closely. And nighttime, we didn’t go out much.

Julie Gabb [00:58:53] Did you do any dancing outside of school?

Lilian Pyles [00:58:57] Oh, yeah. There was a club called the Carlton House. It was a cabaret that we used to go to and just dance and dance and dance and dance and dance. And it was one other place, I can’t remember the name of it. It was on Euclid. We used to go there a lot. And dance. We were- This was the dancing era. We loved music and we loved to dance. That was, you know, in school, in Glenville, at lunchtime, you could either go to lunch. It was- Lunch was three- It was three periods of lunch. You could either go to lunch, you go to a movie that’s shown in the auditorium, or you could go to the gym and dance. It was called rec. We’d have recreation, and everybody would go to the gym every day and dance. Same thing at Empire. You could do a movie, you could do lunch, or you could go to dancing, and we would dance at school.

Julie Gabb [00:59:57] How many. So how long was that?

Lilian Pyles [01:00:00] Those three periods appear. Well, how long is a period? 45 minutes?

Julie Gabb [01:00:06] For me, it was like, let’s say, like 45 to 50 minutes.

Lilian Pyles [01:00:10] Yeah, same thing. There were three periods midday that lunch was served, so you could go to any one of them, depending on your work, depending on your class schedule. I used to go to lunch, and I would go to rec and dance. I mean that. I never went to the movie. I always danced. We danced, and it was wonderful because it was such a gathering place, you know, and it was great exercise, and it was fun. And in the middle of the day, and then you go back to class, you get back to work. You be serious. It was pleasant. It was.

Julie Gabb [01:00:54] People would go dance every day?

Lilian Pyles [01:00:56] Mm hmm. Every day. Every single day. Isn’t that something? And now they don’t know what that is. If they even get lunch. But they don’t know what. Having fun in school with your classmates, they don’t know what that is. They don’t. You know, it was good music. We had supervision, of course, and you just danced until the period was up, and then you went to class.

Julie Gabb [01:01:22] Were there any teachers that also were, that took part?

Lilian Pyles [01:01:26] No, they just. They were there. They were in there, but they didn’t dance too much. We thought they were old, and they really weren’t [laughs], but they were. And I’m sure it was a pleasure for them to be in there and listen to good music. Yeah, but there’d be plenty of teachers in there.

Julie Gabb [01:01:48] I guess, like, final remarks, like, do you have anything else that you want to say about, like, Glenville as a whole?

Lilian Pyles [01:01:56] You know, growing up in Glenville and going to neighborhood schools, it meant a lot to us. It exposed us- I mean, it sounds like we were in a little niche and never left, but it wasn’t like that. It was a big, beautiful community, and it let us know- It exposed us to worldly things, and it exposed us to different supervision by different people, whether they were your parents or whether they were your neighbor or a couple that lived up the street, they all took part in everything. Everybody knew everybody, and that was such a pleasure to grow up in. It was a calmness about that neighborhood, about the camaraderie that we all had. It was truly wonderful, and I don’t think there’s anything like it, and it’s, excuse me, it’s unfortunate that the kids are not exposed to those kind of wonderful things anymore. It really is. You know, the kids are kind of on their own, you know, on their own to learn how to write, to learn how to read, to learn how to travel, to learn how to expose themselves to different things. Glenville was a wonderful time in our lives. It really was. And the school was, bar none, it was one of the best. The teachers were incredible because they loved what they were doing and they loved us. And they presented us with a different outlook on life. They made us understand what it is like other places other than Cleveland, other than Glenville, you know, they let us know how privileged and how, what a good place we were in at the time. They did. And that was a pleasure. It was. And I’ve got the best friends from my school days. Absolutely.

Julie Gabb [01:04:05] Well, thank you for the interview. I really appreciate it.

Lilian Pyles [01:04:08] Thank you! Thank you. I really- [recording ends]

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