Abstract
Grover C. Gilmore is the Dean and Professor of Applied Social Sciences at the Jack, Joseph and Morton Mandel School of Applied Social Sciences, Case Western Reserve University. He received his Ph.D. from The John Hopkins University. This 2017 interview was collected as part of a yearlong, community-wide commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Carl Stokes' election as mayor of Cleveland.
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Interviewee
Gilmore, Grover C. (interviewee)
Interviewer
Perry, Dee (interviewer); Hickey, Christine (participant)
Project
Stokes: Honoring the Past, Inspiring the Future
Date
8-14-2017
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
59 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Grover C. Gilmore interview, 14 August 2017" (2017). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 501015.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1208
Transcript
Dee Perry [00:00:05] This is Dee Perry in the Hanna Library of the Western Reserve Historical Society on Monday, August 14, 2017. And we are about to talk with Dean Grover Cleave Gilmore of Case Western Reserve University about the Stokes brothers for the Stokes Exhibition at Western Reserve Historical Society. And Dean Gilmore, thank you for being with us.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:00:31] Oh, it's my pleasure, Dee.
Dee Perry [00:00:33] So I want to start with some basic information. Where were you born and raised?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:00:38] Well, I was born in Boston, Massachusetts, and that's where I grew up. I went to high school and college there, moved to Baltimore to Johns Hopkins University for my graduate work, and arrived in Cleveland in 1975.
Dee Perry [00:00:54] So about four years after Carl Stokes tenure ended. And as a matter of fact, in terms of age, you were a teenager during his time as mayor. Carl Stokes, did you have any sense or did you know about the election going on in Cleveland?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:01:14] I remember election night in 1967. I was a freshman, and it was an exciting time. Now, I have to say that I did not know much about politics, but when you're in college, you're surrounded by a lot of people who think they do. And the big story of the night and the next day and for a number of days is the fact that an African American was elected to be mayor of a major city in America. And that was hopefully, it was hopeful to hear that news because it was also a time when we'd witnessed a lot of unrest in the cities. It was a time of fear in many places. And so Cleveland was a place who gave us all hope.
Dee Perry [00:01:59] Was there, to your knowledge and experience, that same unrest going on in Boston as it had hit other parts of the country?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:02:11] There was unrest in Boston. Certainly it didn't reach the same extent as it did in other parts of the country, but as a person who grew up in Boston, we were coming to the realization that Boston was a very segregated city. And that was slowly dawning on many of us. And of course, once our eyes were opened, we realized that indeed, there was segregation.
Dee Perry [00:02:37] So when you arrived In Cleveland in 1975, how did you experience that city racially, economically, on a lot of different levels compared to other cities you had lived in up to that point?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:02:57] When my wife and I first visited Cleveland and we were looking for places to live in the summer of 75, I have to say that we were so impressed by the friendliness of Clevelanders, and that was in comparison to our hometown in Boston and also the nice people of Baltimore. We felt a very welcoming spirit here. And it wasn't because I was interacting only with people from the university. We were out in the community. We were looking at houses, looking at apartments, talking with people in stores, and people were friendly. Cleveland was a cleaner city than we were used to. Yeah. So we had a very positive impression when we came here. Now, once we moved here, we learned about the division between east side and west side. We learned that we needed to have a visa to cross the river to get to the other side, which we. Which we occasionally did. But it was interesting to see that division that had grown up over time. We moved into Cleveland Heights. We've always lived in Cleveland Heights since we came here. An attraction at the time was that we could tell as we drove around that it was a more diverse community, and we wanted that. And we have valued that part of Cleveland Heights all these years.
Dee Perry [00:04:22] As I mentioned, it was 1975, four years after Carl Stoat's tenure. Did you get any sense of initiatives that he had started? Were people still talking about him at all? Was there any mention of Stokes in the air or had politics and the city moved beyond?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:04:48] I can't remember a discussion of Carl Stokes at that time. What I remember were discussions about neighborhoods being integrated, difficulty that people had had with some realtors, some real estate companies who were trying to keep African Americans out or driving whites out. That was a very open discussion among people I met in Cleveland Heights. And I learned about efforts that they were making in order to combat that.
Dee Perry [00:05:28] And I'm wondering, too, about Louis Stokes. When and under what circumstances did you first become aware of him?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:05:40] He was my congressman, and it wasn't long after we moved that he became a very public figure because of his leadership in the assassination committee. I read the accounts of Carl Stokes, and I was very proud that he was our leader in Congress and that he was leading an effort to try to come to a truth that Americans could accept about what happened to the Kennedy brothers and also Martin Luther King.
Dee Perry [00:06:19] And as he was your congressman, was there any community interaction that you had with him from time to time?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:06:28] Unfortunately, there was nothing. I was, at that time, very focused on my own career building, trying to figure out how to be a successful assistant professor at Case Western Reserve University. And I had not become engaged in the community, but the first personal communication I had from him was when I received my first federal grant. And he wrote me a note thanking me. And I was astonished that Congressman Louis Stokes would write a letter to a member of his district thanking him for bringing in a grant because he saw it as an economic opportunity. I learned afterwards that that's anything that was Bringing money into his district he was very happy about. But I've spoken to colleagues across the nation, and they have never received a letter from their congressman. So it shows the personal touch that he put into the service to his constituents in his district. It was. He found any way that he could reach out to make a connection with constituents. And it certainly made me feel very good. And so here it is, over 35 years later. I can still remember opening up that letter from Congressman Stokes and being excited about it.
Dee Perry [00:08:03] I want to establish just a base of what happened after Congressman Stokes' return. Start by talking about what it is you do. You're the dean of Case Western Reserve University's Mandel School of Applied Social Sciences. Actually, I should have you say that. So your title is?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:08:30] Well, my full title is Jack Joseph and Morton Mandel Dean in Applied Social Sciences at the Jack Joseph and Morton Mandel School of Applied Social Sciences at Case Western Reserve University. I have to have a very large business card.
Dee Perry [00:08:48] Yes. So what fields of study does all of that title include?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:08:57] Well, the Mandel School was established over 100 years ago at the request of civic leaders in Cleveland who saw a need for social workers, the university established the school. It's actually the oldest graduate professional social work school in North America. And it was established at a time when Cleveland was known for its progressive politics and its progressive leaders. And we saw many organizations start in that era, including Cleveland Foundation, The Roots of United Way, Western Reserve Historical Society, many important institutions were underway at that time. The school has always been embedded in the community and working with people to help those who are in need, help find ways to build a stronger community, to help people find how they can take care of themselves. So it's a school where our primary degree is a social work degree, the Master of Science in Social Administration. We also offer a degree in nonprofit management, the Master's in Nonprofit Organizations, and we have a PhD program in social welfare.
Dee Perry [00:10:31] And Lou Stokes connection to the Mandel School actually goes back decades before he began to teach there in 1999. What do you know about his history of involvement with the school?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:10:46] Well, he became involved with our Washington semester, which was a program that then Dean Terry Hokenstad established to give our social work students an opportunity to go to Washington and to work for a period of time in D.C. itself, and also to interact in Congress to learn about policymaking and how to be effective advocates, how to become change agents. And Dean Hokenstad approached Congressman Stokes for assistance in setting that up. And as they both described to me, they thought it was a perfect idea. And so it lasted for a long period of time. And we have a number of people who became involved in D.C. itself in legislative matters, policy matters, even working as lobbyists. Sometimes you don't. People are surprised that social workers are a lobbyist, but, you know, we need people working on all sides for all issues.
Dee Perry [00:11:50] And did the students who spent Washington semesters get to observe Congressman Stokes in action, or were they more spread out over a variety of.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:12:02] Yeah, My understanding is that they were working in a number of congressional offices and they were also working in nonprofit agencies. But Congressman Stokes opened doors for them.
Dee Perry [00:12:18] There was also a program that he created, Congressman Stokes, that is after his retirement, the Louis Stokes Fellowship Program. Before we talk about his time in the classroom, since we're already in the Washington, D.C. mindset, tell me what the fellowship program was designed to do.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:12:41] The fellowship program was established by Congressman Stokes, working with then Dean Arthur Naperstek to attract underrepresented minorities from around the country to come in and to learn about how to become effective workers in their community. These individuals came in on weekends. At one point, they were coming from 13 states. And the fellowship program, funded by Congress with a nice grant, paid the tuition of the students and also their travel expenses. So they would come in on weekends to participate in our intensive weekend program, learn about effective care, community development, how to work with people, how to build strong, sustainable communities, and then they go back to their jobs. So these were people who were employed and who were attracted to come and to learn more and to enhance their abilities. There were people who were working for community development firms, for Federal Reserve banks, from all walks of life. It was a wonderful program. It was one that it was nice having the funding to support. But since then, we saw it as so important that we continued it. And we have opened up a special scholarship fund for students who are in the Stokes Fellowship Program.
Dee Perry [00:14:22] And do students still come from out of state to participate?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:14:29] Now we attract students who come and they live in Cleveland during the program. So we no longer have the travel funds for the students to come, but we still attract people nationally to come to Cleveland. And we contribute to the brain game of Cleveland because many of them stay here.
Dee Perry [00:14:54] I want to get a sense of what subjects. Well, first of all, the why of it. Because Lou Stokes was many things. A gifted lawyer, a wonderful legislator. Why was the School of Applied Social Sciences a good fit for him as opposed to going back to teach at law school when he retired?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:15:25] The question as to why Congressman Stokes chose to come to a social Work school and not a law school is one that I've heard discussed a number of times. The Congressman himself told me that he had opportunities to go to law schools in Cleveland. This is a man who had a very prominent law practice in Cleveland, who argued before the Supreme Court is a national lawmaker. Makes sense he would go to a law school. However, Dean Darlene Bailey approached him from our social work school and talked with him about the mission of the school of empowering people to work towards social justice. And he felt the mission of the Mandel School fit the mission of his life, and he saw that match, and that's why he made the choice. Not too many years ago, Congresswoman Maxine Waters came to town to deliver the major address at the Stokes symposium. And she spoke to me at the end. She said, I didn't understand why Lou came to a social work school. He was an amazing legislator, argued before the Supreme Court, wrote laws. Why did he choose a law school? She said, having spent a day here with him and his students, I know why he chose the social work school. It really is a fit for him. I agree with Congresswoman Waters on many things, including this.
Dee Perry [00:17:14] And there was a quote of his, of Lou Stokes that I read where he. He talks about it as well, about how social workers in the early part of his life actually changed his life.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:17:35] That's right. That's right. One of my great pleasures and privileges was to get to know Congressman Stokes. And we had many conversations about his life. It was a time when he was working on his book, so these were fresh stories in his mind. And I think I became a sounding board for the presentation of some of these ideas. But he told me how he and Carl had lost their father early in their lives, and they were dependent upon public help. And he said there was no shame in that. This was something we had to do. My mother was a very, very hard worker, but it was the Depression, and so I knew that he had. He and his mother and Carl had public assistance. And then I learned of an alumna of our program, Ella Mae Johnson. And I went to visit Ella Mae Johnson. She was, at that time, over 100 years of age, and she had graduated in 1928. When I met with her, she was just putting down some congressional testimony that she was reading. She was an amazing woman. And I talked with her about her career and what she enjoyed. And she said she enjoyed helping people. And at one point, she said, and I'm very proud that I was able to help the Stokes family. And I paused and I Said the Stokes family, as in Carl and Lou Stokes? She said, oh, yes. I said, oh, that's amazing. You know, what can you tell me? She says, well, we take an oath of confidentiality. I can't tell you much, but I was a social worker and I worked with the family. Very interesting. Did you know that Congressman Stokes is on our faculty? She said, well, I had heard that, yes. He's done very well, hasn't he? When I met with Lou later, I told him about this woman I met with and he said, and what was her name? And there were. I told him his name and he said, well, there were actually two social workers and she was the good one. And I said, well, would you like me to arrange a meeting? So I brought them together and they had personal time together. And later he told me that she was able to give perspective to him on what his mother was dealing with at that time. Something that he was witnessing as a nine year old, but could only understand as a child. But with the information that she could share, even though she still stayed within her confidentiality rules, he had a much better understanding of that time. And I think that created a friendship between the two of them.
Dee Perry [00:21:00] That's wonderful. And now I want to talk about Louis Stokes, the educator. What subjects did he specialize in when he began as a distinguished visiting professor at the Mandel School?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:21:19] Congressman Stokes asked me before every semester to send out a letter reminding faculty that he was available to speak in any class. He did not have one course that he taught. He was simply a person who was invited to come in and spend the entire class period. That might mean a two hour class, that might be a six hour class on weekends. And his participation was across a wide range of courses. Certainly courses in social policy, courses dealing with oppression of minorities in this country, courses that any class where the students might be receiving training on how to work in order to advocate for change. He would be a presenter in there. I would joke with him and the faculty that it was clear to me after I read student evaluations of the courses that faculty brought him in in order to boost the ratings in their courses. Because students would write at length in classes where he had presented and participated with them. Because it wasn't just a presentation. He would be in a dialogue with the students and he would present them with information, but also he would engage them and they would leave that class wanting to go out and work for change, work for a better world. And they would write about that in their course evaluations. It would get me excited. I want to Take this course with Congressman Stokes.
Dee Perry [00:23:10] And when he was interacting, did you get a sense from the students evaluations or personal observation, how he prepared? Was he reading from notes? Was he talking off the top of his head? Did he research before class?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:23:31] His preparation was astonishing. And this is what faculty would give back to me because he was Congressman Stokes, he could just show up and people would be impressed. But he took every opportunity to work with students very seriously. And so my colleagues would tell me that he would come in with a sheaf of notes. And these professors who felt that they were pretty well informed, they would be educated because the congressmen would reach out to congressional staffers and not only get information on recent bills, but also what was pending and why people were taking the positions they were and what were the issues that the congressmen were dealing with. And then with his background, he could then translate that into helping the students to understand what the different points of view were and why one Congressman might have one view and another would have another. But then he would suggest where they might find some compromise and how an effective advocate could help them to find that compromise. So these weren't history lessons, although history is part of his presentations. It was really very immediate what he was presenting. It was on current policy, current work, current challenges, and for anybody, young students and the professors in the classroom, it was a very stimulating experience.
Dee Perry [00:25:18] And it sounds like he was also passing along, I mean, passing a baton. He had advocated for change in various ways all his life. And it sounded like he was preparing people to continue doing that.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:25:35] He was. And I think this is really at the heart of why he wanted to be with these students, because he knew they were the ones who were going to carry on his mission. I can remember one event I attended. There were a group of Stokes Fellows who were graduating, including India Pierce Lee, she was in that group. And they decided to have a celebration. And they invited Congressman Stokes. And after dinner, they each got up and they talked about what it meant to be a Stokes Fellow at the Mandel School. And they had been taught by him, they'd been influenced by him, but also by the other professors. And each one talked about what they were going to do to carry on his life's work and his vision. And he was very moved because this was very tangible. And these weren't 22 year olds. These are people 30, 35, 45 years of age. They've lived a good part of their lives and now they've made a recommitment of their lives to work on behalf of other people. And their communities. And this was a reaffirmation for Congressman Stokes of his own legacy, and that's why he kept coming back year after year. And we were very happy to have him.
Dee Perry [00:27:14] You talked about the academic part of the relationship, but earlier you said that you also became a sounding board for? For Louis Stokes? What sort of personal relationship did you two have?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:27:33] Well, I'm honored that he considered me a friend, and I certainly considered him a friend. We talked about what was going on in our lives, as you do with the friends, what he was dealing with in his own personal life. But also we talked about what was happening in the world and what our views were, and we were very compatible in those views. But I also. I was his dean, and he was my faculty member, and I wanted to see him publish his book because I knew he had so much to share. And so we would get together to talk about that process and what assistance I and the school might be able to give him. He did a good deal of work over here with his archives that are at the Western Reserve Historical Society, working there. We assigned some students to work with him, to go through files and work on that. But then I would also have the privilege of listening to his stories. I say, Lou, just get a tape recorder, talk into the mic. That's the first chapter. That's the third chapter.
Dee Perry [00:28:55] I'm wondering about, in terms of storytelling and history, if he talked about things like the Congressional Black Caucus or other creations that he was so involved with?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:29:20] Yeah, he did. Congressman Stokes did speak a number of times about the formation of the Congressional Black Caucus. I think he felt that that was one of his major achievements in Congress, particularly the way it has lasted and become such a strong influence. He pointed out that when he came into Congress, it was at a time when, for the first time since the era after the Civil War, now there were more than just a couple of African Americans in Congress. And they realized that they would have a stronger voice if they came together. And they didn't always agree, but I think from the outside, what we heard was a very strong voice. So I think he showed his capability of taking very strong people with strong opinions and bringing them together and behind closed doors, hammering out positions that they'd be willing to take together. And we see that today in the strength of not only that caucus, but a number of others, which I believe were more modeled after the Congressional Black Caucus. He and his colleagues created an excellent model.
Dee Perry [00:30:44] And what about just his beyond or maybe supporting accomplishments? Did he talk much about what motivated him to do the things that he did for his country and his community.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:31:04] Congressman Stokes told me a story that he said changed his life. It's when he entered the army during World War II. He'd grown up in Cleveland, had a good life in Cleveland, didn't have complaints, was assigned to the army, was assigned to an all African American, all Negro regiment. And that was fine. Didn't object to that. But then one day they were marched into a dining hall. The South, I think it was Tennessee. They were marched in and there were officers seated and enlisted men seated, having their meals. And there was one section with German POW people being held by the army who were sitting there. All in this dining hall, enlisted American soldiers, German POWs. Lou Stokes and his fellow soldiers were marched around the room to the back of the hallway behind curtains. And they sat behind curtains and had their meal. They were segregated not only from the white soldiers, but also from the prisons of war. And it struck him then, here I am, a citizen, a person who has signed up to fight for my country, and I'm treated lower than a prisoner of war. This isn't right. And what he told me was that started the thought in his mind that when he came back he was going to change that he was going to change the world so that there be equality for all people, including his own people. But that was a trigger event in his young life.
Dee Perry [00:33:24] I was reading that he celebrated Congressman Stokes 90th birthday on February 23, 2015 at Case Western Reserve. Why did he choose to be at that place on that day?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:33:41] It's a wonderful memory that we all have that Congressman Stokes celebrated his birthday with us. Well, it was a day when we held off our faculty meeting. I looked at the academic calendar at the beginning of the year of when our faculty meetings were scheduled. And I saw February 23rd. And I thought, oh, that date is familiar. And I looked up, that's Congressman Stokes birthday. And I asked my assistant, just check with him if he's going to be in town. Because to say, Congressman Stokes came to 99% of our faculty meetings. We meet at least once a month. And he was always there and he was always a participant. Occasionally something would come up and he wouldn't be able to be there. But I wanted to make sure he was going to be there. And he said, well, of course, Cleve, I'm going to be there. It's a regular faculty meeting and Alyssa's a blizzard. And as we got closer to. I said, Paul, would you mind if we had a cake just a little bit? Something at the end. Oh, no, that'd be fine. So we held our faculty meeting, and we walked out into the atrium, and he saw the cake and the celebration and people coming, and we didn't make it a big thing. It was a family affair. It was the family in the school who held the celebration for him. And he loved it. He loved it. I still have on my phone the voicemail from him when he called and thanked me for the birthday. I'll always keep that. He was an incredibly kind and gracious man.
Dee Perry [00:35:35] I want to talk a little bit more about legacy and go back first to his younger brother, Carl. Even though you weren't in the city at the time, I'm curious if you have a sense now of what the Carl Stokes legacy is.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:35:59] Well, I can tell you that anytime Congressman Stokes spoke of his brother, he spoke of his brother with admiration, but also with pain and loss. The loss of his brother never left him. And there would be occasions when it would simply come up because there'd be some recognition of something that had happened, or someone would have mentioned Carl or. Or Congressman Stokes would simply bring him up. And he knew that his brother had been a major figure in American politics, first being elected to the state House and then as mayor of Cleveland. But what he felt most deeply was that connection with his brother and that they had worked together very hard as young men, becoming lawyers, setting up their law office, and they both found a path for public service. And he was very proud of that. And he would talk about how he wouldn't be where he was without his brother. He had no intention of going into politics. The seat in Congress was supposed to be Carl's, but Carl's already doing a job. He was mayor. And then community leaders turned to Lou and said, well, we need you. And so he took that up. That wasn't part of his plan. He had work to do in Cleveland, but he took that up. But it always came back to Carl. Even in his latest later years, when we were talking towards the end of his life, he spoke about Carl and how much he missed him and how much he missed those conversations. They had a wonderful relationship.
Dee Perry [00:38:09] And when you look at the total of Lou's life, what kind of to mind when I asked the legacy question.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:38:29] He was a great man at an important time in our history. Not only was he very important for the city of Cleveland and for Ohio, but he was a voice of conscience in Congress for America. He stood up to President Reagan. He stood up and told them what they did in the Rencontre was Wrong. He made sure that people would translate their words of concern into actionable legislation in order to benefit the community. He was very proud of his name being placed on the Veterans Administration Medical Center here in Cleveland. Now it's the Louis Stokes VA, as well as the building at the National Institutes of Health and the space at Case Western Reserve and the Health Sciences Center. Because he had worked very hard throughout his career in Congress to bring benefits and high quality care to not only veterans, but to all Americans. So the health of Americans was very, very important to him. I think we can look at what he was able to accomplish as a great treasure for our country. But I think those of us who are fortunate to know him were impressed by his humor. He. It was never, it was never about doing something that would benefit him. It was never about his ego. I only got to know him when he was out of, outside of Congress. But there were many times when we'd be walking in this area of Cleveland, downtown, some other area, and people were always coming up to him. Congressman Stokes, Congressman Stokes, do you remember me? And then they would stop and they would tell a story. He always stopped to listen. It didn't matter what our schedule was, where we were at. He stopped and, and he listened. And respectfully, I would step away because then they would get into some private conversations. And what I thought at the time, first few times I saw this, that he's not running for office anymore. He doesn't need to do this. These aren't votes. But it was never about the vote. It was about caring for that person and that person. Even though Congressman Stokes was no longer in Congress, that person had a story to tell. Sometimes it was to thanking him, telling him what the effects were. Sometimes they just wanted him to hear this about their lives. And he listened. And I believe he would use that information not only to inform his teaching with our students, but I'm sure that when he made his visits to Congress and speech speaking to other leaders in the Ohio Legislature, he would pass that on. Remember whom you're serving, remember why we're here. So the servant leader.
Dee Perry [00:42:35] We were just talking about legacy in an overarching way. I'm wondering about for you personally if you were inspired by Lou Stokes example and if so, how?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:42:57] I was inspired by how he interacted with people. And he never called attention to himself. I met him when I had just been named dean of the Mandel School. Not a big thing, leading a few people, a few programs. But I've seen some people get big heads about it and it's about them. I'm very fortunate that I had Lou Stokes as a model, because his humility, his desire only to work on behalf of others is an excellent example of leadership for us all. So many people would say who had an opportunity to interact with them. They would walk into the room in awe. Oh, my God, Congressman Stokes is here. But then after a while, after they had calmed down, they realized, oh, well, that's he's just here to work with us, and, you know, we can get some things done. And so he was able to really help people come down to a level where, you know, let's get beyond this image stuff and let's just work together and don't make it about yourself. Make it about the people whom you're serving. He was very important to me as a mentor in that regard.
Dee Perry [00:44:31] And on that same note, as someone whose job it is to help shape students and faculty into fully engaged human beings, what are the most important activities you think they should be pursuing at this point in time, given all that we've just talked about?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:44:54] Well, one has to be informed. We're training people whom we're charging to be change agents, people to go out and to build a better world and to help people reach their full fulfillment. And they have to be informed. They have to know what the evidence base is for the recommendations that they're making. They have to understand if they're going to effect change in social policy, what that legislative process is. It's more than simply standing up and saying, I don't like it. You have to understand what that process is and how you can bring about that change. About 10 or so years ago, maybe longer, a number of social work schools in the state of Ohio had an agreement that when it came time for the state of Ohio to do its biennial budget, that we would go down to Columbus and talk with the legislators about the needs of our communities, that we need to make the pie bigger so we can have more for services for people. And so we held a series of workshops, teach ins on campus. And Congressman Stokes delivered a workshop that I've always remembered. And he told the students, you need to be informed. Your teachers are doing a good job making sure you understand what the status is of people in the communities and what they need and what the current policy is. You need to know what your goal is to bring about a change and have some recommendations in mind. And you need to show up to express that to the legislator. But then you need to keep going back, and you need to keep going back. It's not just about this one day. It's about persistence, persistence, persistence. Picking what you want to bring about and working on it. That was very effective. I remember this a number of years later. I think it was very effective for the students there, too, because it's easy to get on a picket line and say, I don't like this. You can take it a step further and write a letter to your representative. You might even be able to visit with them. But that's not going to bring about change. That's going to get noticed for a few seconds, maybe a minute, but it's not going to bring about change. Change occurs when you're persistent, persistent, persistent.
Dee Perry [00:48:04] That's a great legacy as well. I think that's all that's on my sheet. But is there something else that?
Christine Hickey [00:48:14] Yeah, what I'd like to do is I want to go back and talk a little bit about, like, condense some of what you said, if you don't mind.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:48:24] Oh, I know.
Christine Hickey [00:48:25] It's.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:48:25] It's the professor effect.
Christine Hickey [00:48:27] No, this was great. It was very- I understood everything, and it was all very clear and succinct. So I appreciate it. There are a couple of things. Okay. There were a couple things I want to talk about. You mentioned where you mentioned Carl's election and you weren't here in Cleveland. We did appear in the beginning of it, you know, just from. I'm listening to it from the perspective of not hearing Dee's question. So I did. I wasn't aware of where you were, so if you could just re? Answer that one? Where were you when Carl was elected and how did you feel at that moment? So a little more succinct. We can do that one first and then I can go on to the next one.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:49:08] That's right.
Dee Perry [00:49:11] And what were you doing? How did you react?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:49:16] I remember well when Carl Stokes was elected as mayor of Cleveland, I was a freshman in college at Brandeis University outside of Boston, and I was not very political, but I was surrounded by a lot of people who were. And I received an education. But in that night, I can remember the excitement, and I soon shared it, that a major American city had elected the first black man as its leader, as its mayor. That was astonishing. This was a time we were seeing rioting in a number of major streets. We saw people being beaten in the streets, hit with water cannons, dogs attacking them, and Cleveland had elected a black man as its mayor. It gave me a great, positive feeling about Cleveland.
Dee Perry [00:50:22] Excellent.
Christine Hickey [00:50:23] I just wanted to wrap it up all together, so. Because I thought the story Was powerful, but, you know, I knew you weren't coming from Cleveland. If I just used that section, it wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't known. You talked about the letter that you got from Congressman Stokes in the grant. Could you just give me a brief story on that?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:50:46] Sure.
Christine Hickey [00:50:46] Do you remember what the grant was for in particular, or was it anything that was relevant? So if you could just kind of recap that story about the fact that, you know, he gave personal attention to you.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:51:02] My first personal interaction with Congressman Stokes was when I received a letter from him after I had had a grant awarded by the national institutes of Health. It was a grant to study the changes that occur in vision and perception with older adults. The congressman wrote to me to thank me for bringing that grant into his congressional district. I thought, wow, Congressman Stokes is thanking me. It made me feel great that it had the attention of a congressman and that maybe my work was going to be important. And I learned later that he was simply grateful of any funding being brought into his district. He saw the benefit of it. But also what was special was I haven't met any colleagues from around the country who received letters from their congressman. He cared. And that was over 35 years ago. And I still remember opening the letter in my excitement. That's the effect he had on people. He cared. He reached out. He made us feel special.
Christine Hickey [00:52:35] Adrian, was the truck a problem or no?
Grover C. Gilmore [00:52:38] Was the problem just in the beginning?
Christine Hickey [00:52:41] Just in the beginning. Okay.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:52:46] The audio problem.
Christine Hickey [00:52:48] Well, there was just a loud truck. You don't notice, oh, truck sitting here when you're paying attention, like.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:52:54] Because I'm just like, do we have a truck audio filter? I'm good at filtering it up.
Christine Hickey [00:53:07] I think I can put both of those together with the beginning of the first one and second one. So it was just me trying to get the green information.
Dee Perry [00:53:16] Yeah, I was thinking about that while he was talking, but I didn't. If you wanted that much detail. So I'm glad you re ask.
Christine Hickey [00:53:25] And then I want to go. You know, what I really want people to understand is that he spent 30 years in Congress working for the community and the nation and making things better, equal. And that wasn't it. I mean, in his retirement, he went on to inspire the next generation. So if you could give me a recap of something similar to that and what you saw him that inspiring the youth. And I believe he felt that his job wasn't done even after congress.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:54:08] Right. Do you want me to talk about why he came to the social works?
Christine Hickey [00:54:12] Succinct. A little more succinct.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:54:14] Okay.
Christine Hickey [00:54:14] It's a little shorter, right? I'm aiming for, like, 30 seconds a minute, max.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:54:22] Okay. Congressman Stokes, after he'd finished an exemplary career in Congress 30 years, chose to come to a social work school. And I learned it was because he saw a match between the mission of our social work school to empower people in building a just world. He saw a match with that and his own career. And he wanted to continue the work, and he did, by teaching our students, teaching our faculty, and inspiring all of us.
Dee Perry [00:55:07] And I want to follow up on that, because there's a legacy question that was in there, too, that maybe you wanted a shorter answer to. And the question is something like, when Lou was teaching the students at the. The Mandel School, it wasn't just a history lesson, was it? There was a future piece to it.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:55:39] When Congressman Stokes was teaching, it wasn't only about history. History is important because you don't want to repeat bad stuff. But he was always very well informed about what was happening in legislation now, what the recent legislation was, but also what was pending. And he also understood people's positions on either side. And he could tell students why people took different positions. And then, most importantly, he could say, and now what they need to do is to find their common ground. And he could teach them how to be agents in doing that. He was extraordinary in the way he could bring people together and find the common ground and then to teach our students to do that as well. I have a story related to that. Carl Stokes told me that a reason that he left Congress was because of the terrible acrimony and division when he went into Congress. There was also very strong opinions on both sides, but people talked with one another, they spent time with one another. But by the time he left, that had stopped. People were only yelling at one another, and they wouldn't take time to appreciate the other person's position, and they wouldn't come together to find common ground. And that's not how he wanted to spend the rest of his career. It was now time to teach others, to work towards building towards common ground.
Dee Perry [00:57:46] Yeah, I like that.
Christine Hickey [00:58:10] I think I have a subject. I think we're good.
Dee Perry [00:58:14] Okay.
Christine Hickey [00:58:14] Dee, did you have anything in general?
Dee Perry [00:58:17] No, I. Oh, well, just. If there's. If there are any other issues that we didn't get to, or stories that you think captured the essence of Louis Stokes that you haven't shared with us, feel free.
Grover C. Gilmore [00:58:43] It's just for people to understand that. Congressman Lou Stokes was a really nice man. He was a humble man, one who was comfortable with kings, queens and presidents and also with students and anybody in the community. He was a remarkable man.
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