Charles V. Williams is a longtime advocate for the Black Deaf community at both the local, state, and national levels. In this second of two interviews, he discusses his advocacy in the Black Deaf community from the 1970s to the present, including volunteering at the Cleveland Society for the Blind, his efforts for greater inclusivity in the provisions of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, getting closed captioning added for the 1980 Democratic National Convention, creating an interpreter training program at Cleveland State University, serving on state and national boards, including as a founding member of Black Deaf Advocates and on the board of Gallaudet University, teaching ASL at Baldwin-Wallace College and CSU, and involvement in Deaf outreach in the Episcopal Diocese of Ohio.


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Williams, Charles V. (interviewee); Feher, Paula (interpreter); Cangelosi-Williams, Pat (participant)


Souther, Mark (interviewer)


Project Team



Document Type

Oral History


151 minutes


Mark Souther [00:00:02] Today is February 8, 2020. My name is Mark Souther. I'm from Cleveland State University representing the Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. I'm here today in Cleveland Heights with Mr. Charles V. Williams, also known as Chuck, and we're here for a second interview that follows up on our interview one week ago. Last time we looked at his life from really from birth through the 1960s. And today we want to get into his advocacy activities from the 1970s to the present. So glad to be back and thank you again.

Charles Williams [00:00:49] Me too. Very excited that you came again.

Mark Souther [00:00:54] Thanks. I'd like to start by asking you about your experience volunteering at the Cleveland Society for the Blind, which is now the Sight Center.

Charles Williams [00:01:08] It all started with Paula. We met her at Kent State University with Dr. [Alex] Boros. Dr. Boros. I spelled his name... pronounced his name right. He was involved with Alcoholics [Anonymous]. That time he tried to explain to the Deaf community that if you drink one glass of beer in the morning, that you are automatically an alcoholic. Which a lot of Deaf people were upset to hear that. He put out ten empty bottles of beer and I asked him how many they drank and the time of it. And most of them, who felt they had their first drink in the morning before they come in to work, he tried to explain to them. They were very upset. Even some Deaf people from Akron came and heard that and tried to shoo him out, but he took it like a man. And I really appreciate it because I know a few Deaf people drink beer before they go to work. So he continued with his program. He had it at the YMCA downtown off of Payne Avenue. And unfortunately one Deaf person from New York who happened to fall off, I don't know how high, maybe sixth floor, seventh floor, I can't remember, but he had a note in his pocket. He just wrote, "Nobody helped me." So that was kept out of the Plain Dealer newspaper or anything like that. Not many people were aware of that. Harbor Light, down at Harbor Light, that's right. So I stayed there for a few weeks teaching the staff sign language briefly. That was later when Deaf blind people were at the Sight Center from community college also because they set up a program there.

Mark Souther [00:03:44] Now you mentioned that you met Paula Feher there through Dr. Boros...

Charles Williams [00:03:53] I met Paula there, yeah. She was working on her M.A. and I had to write a letter to get her hired there, and I was surprised she got hred with my letter [because] I wasn't a good writer. So from there, she came up with the idea that the workers should learn Sign Language because she set up a Blind and Deaf program there. So I volunteered. That's how I met my wife.

Mark Souther [00:04:25] Is this the backdrop for what we now call the Sight Center?

Charles Williams [00:04:29] Right, Cleveland Sight Center, which is located on 101[st] and Chester Avenue. It's still there.

Mark Souther [00:04:44] Mhm. We're pausing for just a moment. [The pause allows for interpreter Paula Feher to begin assisting. Pat Cangelosi-Williams, the interviewee's spouse, interpreted for the first few minutes.] I didn't mention that Paula Feher is going to be the interpreter today, so thank you for joining us and helping make this interview possible. So continuing, is there anything else about the, you know, your volunteer work at the Cleveland Society for the Blind that I haven't asked you about that we should cover before I move on.

Charles Williams [00:05:27] Well, Paula invited me to the Sight Center for a half hour to teach staff there because of the program they had there, which happened to be Deaf and Blind and I was taken by surprise. It was under the Helen Keller program. I was taken by surprise how many Deaf and Blind people here in Greater Cleveland. I didn't realize it was [inaudible]. So that's how I met Bob... I can't pronounce his last name.

Paula Feher [00:05:57] Smithdas.

Charles Williams [00:05:58] And Bob.

Paula Feher [00:05:59] Prause.

Charles Williams [00:05:59] Right. But they had a camp there. Highbrook, Highbrook Lodge. A few of us volunteered to pick up Deaf and Blind out at the airport. I had my car, I had a convertible. I happened to pick up Bob. He had a long cane, coming out of the airport and he had his name on there. So I bumped into him. I was not good signing [inaudible] I didn't have those skills. I went slow. So I walked him to my car, and he put his hand on the car and went over it. He told me what kind of car it was because they had practiced with [inaudible].

Mark Souther [00:07:04] Let me quickly, just for clarification, when you mentioned Bob, is it Bob Smithdas?

Charles Williams [00:07:13] Yes, that's right. He is the only person that puts his thumb on your lip while you're talking straight without stopping. And he was great. He did that too, he was on televsion with Barbara Walters. And I don't know, she didn't move her face, but she permitted him to put his thumb on her lip and that wouldn't be in the interview at that time, yeah.

Mark Souther [00:07:43] Can you explain that technique? Tadoma?

Charles Williams [00:07:48] Well, you put your thumb on your lip. "Hello, how are you," and all that. "It's nice to meet you. What's your name again?" And he felt it.

Mark Souther [00:08:01] You feel the vibration.

Charles Williams [00:08:04] He's very skillful for that. He and one other person are very skillful at that. And I was taken by surprise and I didn't think anybody else could do that now today.

Mark Souther [00:08:17] Can you tell me more about Tadoma? You know, how long ago that was developed, as far as you know and how long it's been used as a technique?

Charles Williams [00:08:24] I don't know about that. I don't know anything. I don't think anybody else could do that. I don't know how long, no, but I know Bob, he had his own Ph.D. He's a very smart man. Very smart, tall and Blind and Deaf. And he knew how to make jokes and was a very happy person. But that was eye popper for me that he can talk. He's born Blind and Deaf. He can talk and he can have fun and all though, but when he did that, I was shocked when I bumped into him at the airport, took him to my car. So that's how we communicated back and forth. But out of all those Blind and Deaf people at the camp, Bob was the only one. The others couldn't do that.

Paula Feher [00:09:20] Dowdy? They would talk together? [Note: Leroy Dowdy and his wife, who were Deaf-blind, were also at the camp.]

Charles Williams [00:09:22] Oh, he passed away, too, yeah. He passed away. And the swimming pool out there, oh my God! Everybody would dive in the swimming pool without getting hurt and I couldn't believe it. I just couldn't believe it. They didn't bump heads, nothing. And then we went to hay riding. Hay riding was alright. But there was a lot of volunteers slipping in there. [Laughs] There was a lot of kissing going on. Oh, boy, did I have fun! Oh, you weren't on the hayride! So that night I had to go to the lodge and put them up, pick up Bob and walk him to the campfire. One of the biggest campfires I ever saw in my life has been a Boy Scout during my time, so the campfire was so big! And then Bob found me and I realized I saw a rope from one tree to the next tree. So they put the hand on the rope and they keep walking, walking, walking until they found the heat. When they found the heat they'd turn around know this is the place, so they set downon logs in the woods that time. And a person tells the stories and all that, and volunteers were interpreting in sign language. Ooh, they way off, and blind deaf people were very angry, very upset because they didn't get the full story. What was going on? When it was over with, I walked them back to their pad where they sleep overnight. They had breakfast, lunch, and dinner, dancing, playing piano and all, just like they were normal. So Bob asked me. He wants to go to the bar. I took him and three other guys to the bar in my car. We rode up a country road. There was a bar there. It was about noontime. We went in. There was nobody in there except us, so we ordered a big beer that comes in the jug. Well, they all were holding hands talking and all that, and the owner of the bar came and was looking, and then we ordered again, and he was surprised that we just kept drinking and all that. So we left to go back for lunch. He called out and said, "Hey!" I happened to hear him. "Bring 'em back again!" [Laughs] He had fun. We were drinking beer and we ordered all the time. So I took them back to the camp. We really enjoyed that camp though. And I was teaching sign language. I advised my students to volunteer to do that. It was very good. They were learning about Blind and Deaf.

Mark Souther [00:12:43] Where was Highbrook Lodge where the camp was?

Charles Williams [00:12:48] It was on the East Side in Chardon. Big, big, beautiful place out there.

Mark Souther [00:13:00] Can you tell me, I know you were involved in a lot of other things. This was in the mid-1970s. Can you tell me also about the work that you do with Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973?

Charles Williams [00:13:18] 504, yes. What happened with 504, it was a donation given by the government to the Deaf community to be trained to know more about 504. So what really happened was there was a workshop going on in Washington, D.C., and I volunteered and I happened to be the only Black person there. It was at the fire station in D.C. or outside they had it. So the workshop was trying to educate the Deaf community about this 504 and make sure that the Deaf community be aware of it. And I looked around and found out there's no other people of color there, and so I was the only one. After I came home, I called the government and explained to them that no Deaf person of color could be involved. And they had workshops all around in the USA and mostly to white Deaf people. So the government was taken by surprise. And there was one workshop left. So they called the National Association of the Deaf and told them that's it time to turn it over to Charles. We have to let him run the workshop for people of color, so I was taken by surprise, and I had to line up all the Black Deaf leaders and invite them to the workshop.

Mark Souther [00:15:14] Can you tell me more about what 504 was?

Charles Williams [00:15:20] It's the TTY and 7-1-1 for selling to Deaf people to use it in the hospital. Improved health care and all the services. And [inaudible], using [inaudible] How to use it. But unfortunately, I had all the people to come. They questioned me first. They think I didn't know anything about 504. They asked me a lot of questions, and I responded back. They were taken by surprise and then took me outside and gave me the key to the car. It was the National Association's car, said NAD1 on the license plate. But I drove that car around for three days, and I think the Deaf people were upset that I had a car to ride around with. It was very, very interesting for me. [Interpreter whispers inaudibly to interviewer] 7-1-1. That's something for the Deaf person for information. That's 7-1-1. I don't think many Deaf people are aware of that though but that's for information. When they push that button...

Paula Feher [00:16:41] 7 -1-1.

Charles Williams [00:16:42] 7 -1 -1.

Mark Souther [00:16:49] Is that like an emergency number?

Paula Feher [00:16:50] And also how to use a TTY to call 9-1-1, oh, 7-1-1.

Charles Williams [00:16:57] 7-1-1, and a lot of Deaf people are unaware about that number.

Mark Souther [00:17:05] And you were on various boards and committees during this time at the local and state level.? Can you tell me more about your work with some of those? In the 1970s.

Charles Williams [00:17:22] I worked with the community, the Cuyahoga County government community on employment. It's all about advising the community on services that Deaf people should be aware of. And I was on that board. I was the only one. And they had a national conference in Washington, D.C., so I found out that they didn't pick anybody who was of color at that time. So I asked the person who was in charge. I said, how come you didn't happen to pick anybody in this community who happened to be of color? So they picked me and paid for my expense. It's called the Rehab Service Commission Advisory Board.

Mark Souther [00:18:27] This was a state-level, [crosstalk] or was it state-level representation nationally?

Charles Williams [00:18:35] No, no, it represents Greater Cleveland. Cleveland, Ohio. And when I got there, I found out that the hotel for me was at the black hotel. I could not be put in the white hotel. I was taken by surprise...

Mark Souther [00:19:05] And this was in the 1970s.

Charles Williams [00:19:05] ... at that time. Yeah, in Washington, D.C., yeah. Washington, D.C. And they drive me this way [Laughs] and I was already taken by... because the conference was held in the basement of the hotel. [Interpreter interjects inaudibly] Yeah, me. The conference was in the basement of the hotel, and I was taken by surprise. So so many people around there, Deaf people from all over the United States and maybe some, maybe, but only or two Black people there. That's where I met Linwood Smith. [Responds to whispered questions from interpreter] I'm not talking about NBDA. I met him there at the... yeah.

Mark Souther [00:20:09] And we'll come back to the NBDA in a few minutes.

Charles Williams [00:20:15] [I was a] member of the grant writing committee to improve healthcare for the Deaf at Metro, Metro Hospital. 1977 to 1980. That's where we had the Deaf Expo. [Responding to inaudible comment] I said that, right, that's where we had the Deaf Expo the same year.

Mark Souther [00:20:36] Let me get back for a moment. Back to 1975. I understand that you were involved in Cuyahoga Community College, or Tri-C, Mental Health and English classes? Can you tell me...

Charles Williams [00:20:49] Oh, okay. That's very interesting. You're talking about 1975. Community Mental Health and English class to train Deaf people, professionals. Mike Bailis was director with another co-worker. I don't have his name though. But Mike, I gave him a lot of credit because he set up the program for classes for Deaf people to attend. [inaudible question] And, yeah, separately and it happened to be Shirley. What was Shirley's last name? [inaudible response] Yeah, Shirley Prok. So I think there was around ten of us. So we learned and it was a short semester, but we got an associate degree. And it's very good. They had Jay Croft, who was the Deaf pastor for our church to have him teach English and all that, but favorite was poems. The people never had a taste of it. It was hard to get through without hearing it and all that. So that was really a temporary program, which was set up by the community college in what to me was downtown. It was a great experience. We got our associate degree there. Jay is completely Deaf.

Mark Souther [00:22:42] Now, can you tell me a little bit about the work at MetroHealth Hospital in the late '70s?

Charles Williams [00:22:50] Well, Metro, we met Peggy Lee, Janet Pray [inaudible], and Pat Taylor. [Laughs] That's her name before we got married. [Laughs] And we met Paula Marshall [Feher]. We met these people and we got together, and we discussed about MetroHealth Hospital, about the community of the Deaf people in Greater Cleveland and talked about interpreting. Yeah, for the hospital staff. And the only thing that came out was how could MetroHealth Hospital fund this program. So I think it was temporary but it did not get out to the Deaf community. That was not their favorite hospital, so, but we tried to stand up with the law, 504, but the hospital was unaware of that law which was the 504. But then it faded away. But a lot of Deaf people never liked Metro Hospital. They had the Lutheran Hospital and all these others, and University Hospitals and Cleveland Clinic at that time.

Mark Souther [00:24:56] So they were unaware of Section 504 or they were...

Charles Williams [00:25:02] Oh, no...

Mark Souther [00:25:02] ... just noncompliant?

Charles Williams [00:25:08] You have to remember the Deaf community realized during those years... They only go to Deaf clubs and Deaf churches and all that. And there were no Deaf leaders at that time. They're all involved, every day, every day, in Deaf clubs and nothing was spoken about the programs that're offered to us. These programs... We tried to educate but there's no Deaf leaders at that time. So it was very difficult, so I and a few others tried to get Deaf people to tend to those hospitals. And attempted to help them vote during the election. Not many Deaf people voted at that time. They're unaware because they said they don'tt help me, and [inaudible] said you don't help me by not voting for me, so it's on both sides. And it's very difficult.

Mark Souther [00:26:09] Yeah. I'm really starting to get a better sense of this. So, there's a large community and yet it doesn't really come together as a bloc, doesn't know its rights, doesn't know how to advocate for rights, that's where you needed leadership.

Charles Williams [00:26:28] Well, the problem was, when you tried to pass the American Sign Language Bill [inaudible] language in the college and high schools at that time, we went to Washington, I mean to Columbus, the capital down here, we got support from the Deaf community around the state and some hearing [inaudible] who volunteered. We went to Columbus that time. The weather was real nice and we all were outside. We blocked up High Street and Main Street in downtown. We blocked that up, and a representative came out and said, Sorry, we can't help you because there's not enough of you all to vote for us. We got hit hard right there. And then we went back home and then next year another group went. And that group was mostly hearing and would give us support. And finally, they broke through. So now we have [inaudible] language in high school and college and university. But few Deaf people were involved with that, which I have forgotten the number. I had it in my notebook.

Mark Souther [00:27:50] Can you tell me about the Deaf Expo?

Charles Williams [00:27:55] Oh, that was real great. Deaf Expo was at Terminal Tower, way up on the top there, and there was a cafeteria up there, too. It was interesting that... What year was that? Nineteen...

Mark Souther [00:28:18] Looks like late '70s.

Charles Williams [00:28:20] What year was that? [Interpreter interjects] Around 1975. And Councilman Louis Stokes, we invited him to represent 'cause I know him and we [inaudible] Deaf people who have different skills, like art, train, airplane, pictures, and cooking, whatever, and they did a great job. We had the whole floor. We had Deaf people coming from up north, Michigan and all that. I think that we paid no rent. I think they gave it to us up there in the Terminal Tower, way up at the top. So it was a good Expo program. And Louis Stokes did a good job and introduced himself and the crowd, and all that, give it to him. You will never see that again.

Mark Souther [00:29:25] These are photos in the Deaf Expo photo album. This is Louis Stokes, and you, I see. Yeah. Yeah, I recognize you, of course. And I see what Carla was saying about the 1970s clothes. Carla was commenting on the 1970s clothing. So this was in the Terminal Tower, and who was the main audience for this? Who was the main audience for the Deaf Expo?

Charles Williams [00:30:05] That was the Deaf community [crosstalk] with the help of Dr. Boros and Dolly, what's Dolly's last name? [Interpreter responds] Dolly Boyd. She's hearing.

Mark Souther [00:30:21] Was it more to connect people who had different skills with job opportunities that employed those skills? Is that the primary purpose or...

Charles Williams [00:30:37] Well, it was very funny because [inaudible] was exposed to a lot of hearing people. We tried to be separate from the Deaf organization to have our own mental health program. We had an offer on Lorain Avenue where... on the corner where there used to be a bar. They went out of business, so they offered it to us free of rent at that time. It was a real old building, Dr. Boros explained to us... Dolly Boyd explained to us, You go out and check on the furniture and get some feedback, how much it costs. You go out and check up on typewriters and things. Get some feedback. Go out there for the office to use. But the building and stuff was so old that they gave it to us. The floor was crack, crack. If we shut that business now, we would be all over the newspapers. We tried to take it away from BVR. Tell him BVR.

Paula Feher [00:31:50] Bureau of Vocational Rehab.

Charles Williams [00:31:50] Yeah, from the site. We felt that we try to be excited because there are other sites like that. They had that in Indianapolis, Massachusetts, and Detroit, Michigan. They separated that and let it [be] run by Deaf people. Let Deaf people do their thing. And we tried to do it but some hearing people whispered to the governors and we couldn't get through with that. So, I'll never forget we got stabbed in the back with that program. We could never get our own thing because the governor had control over that. The government had control over that. I was so upset.

Mark Souther [00:32:39] That you could never have a Deaf center.

Charles Williams [00:32:44] Not a Deaf center. I wouldn't call it a center. There's a lot of Deaf try to call it a Deaf program, like [where] you go for service and programs and go for help. Go find a place where you get lawyers and doctors and all that, be educated in who was who.

Mark Souther [00:33:13] I see. Let's talk about the two mock trials that you were involved with at the Cleveland-Marshall College of Law.

Charles Williams [00:33:27] We had, uh... Case Western Reserve. No, the mock trial was at Case Western Reserve. We had that at Case Western Reserve. We had what we call a mock trial. We had Deaf people acting as juries and trained them. It was very interesting. And we had four... I think we had four lawyers, young lawyers involved with that. We had a person be on trial for something, and try to educate that person while they're on trial. We had a Deaf jury, see how they would come out with it, with interpreters to explain that. That was really fun, and then we had Deaf people sitting in the back to oversee this program. I'm sorry that there was no videotape at that time. I wish I had that; I'm real sorry about that. But we got that from Louisiana. Louisiana had the mock trial, the other state that had that. So we had one here. And my father was involved. My father was the judge. The people who came in, my father told them to take their hat off... [Laughs] I never will forget that... take their hat off. No talking with your hands. Wow! I didn't tell him anything. He sees it. No talking with your hands. It was good experience with legal words and terms. A lot of 'em didn't understand that. It was hosted one day at Case Western Reserve, though, I know that for sure.

Mark Souther [00:35:13] Another thing around that same time, it seems, was on your work picketing at Channel 8 to provide closed captioning? Can you tell a little bit about that and what it led to?

Charles Williams [00:35:28] Oh, we protested at Channel 8 at Lakeside... [inaudible]

Mark Souther [00:35:29] Lakeside Avenue?

Charles Williams [00:35:29] Marginal. The Howard Johnson Restaurant was there. And we protested. Nothing came out of it, but it was fun. We had a lot of Deaf people. We had people who had babies in a car and brought them over to and we had Deaf people who worked... We had... [inaudible] We had Deaf people who worked at Howard Johnson Hotel with that. It's gone now. But Channel 8... We couldn't bust through. We wanted closed captioning. It was all about money.

Mark Souther [00:36:29] I'm going to jump out of sequence a little bit because I'd like to ask just a little bit more about what happened from there in terms of pursuing closed captioning. Where did you go there, and where...

Charles Williams [00:36:45] Well, we tried to file a lawsuit. We were at Washington, D.C., at that time. I hired Jeffrey Friedman and his agency, and Jeffrey, the one you see on the bus and rapid transit, and the man in a wheelchair, I hired him at that time. I told him I had no money or anything like that. He was willing to volunteer, and I was taken by surprise. So we went to Washington, D.C. He went in his van, and I went with my friend. We drove to Washington, D.C., and my wife came later. We would use Model [Secondary] School for the Deaf at Gallaudet because we had a woman who was secretary who knew how to write legal in court system. And she typed so fast. I forgot her name. Carroll... I can't say her last name.

Pat Cangelosi-Williams [00:38:25] Carl Kirschner from DAWN helped you too.

Charles Williams [00:38:25] Carl, Carl, yeah, Carl, right. I can't say or pronounce his last name.

Mark Souther [00:38:30] That's OK.

Charles Williams [00:38:35] Yes, from DAWN. So we went in the court and paid for the fee. But before that, Jeffrey Friedman, he had something. He looked at the paper. Throw it on the floor. He looked at the paper thrown on the floor and said, Was that Webber who did all this typewriting? Well I feel sorry for her because she kept guard as she didn't give up. And she didn't cry or anything. And then she was under a lot of pressure. We were in a hurry to go to the courthouse. But we went to courthouse, and I paid for the fees. I think I was around a hundred dollars, maybe fifty dollars, paid for the fee. And we went to one judge to the other judge. They all turned it down because they had interest, see, in the election. They had an interest in stock in the TV station.

Mark Souther [00:39:31] They had an interest in the stock of a TV station?

Charles Williams [00:39:36] Will you let me finish, please? So finally, one judge showed up and took the case. He happened to be a Black man. [Laughs] I said, Oh, my God! I was cheering myself. The court was up, and the bench was up higher. And the lawyers came in from the train, airport, and all. I got nervous. Had the whole team up there, had lawyers from... oh, my God. Then my wife and her friend came here. Then the National Associates of the Deaf came in. NAD, yeah. They wanted to see the papers. I refused. Show them. I said, You couldn't help us. I refused. But anyway, they stepped down because they were getting grant money from the government so they couldn't get involved. So, I had another organization, it's not there now today, that they did all the counting for us, let me know how many Deaf people in the United States and programs and all... They did a very good job to give me the feedback. So the job was ready. Jeffrey Friedman in his wheelchair rolled up. He had to look up. [Laughs] The judge was sitting up there. He said, Y'all go back home. There's nothing here. You have to go to FCC, the television people there. The case is not in this court. We had nothing to do. It was so upsetting. All those lawyers came, flew in from Boston and all that. So Jeffrey Friedman said okay. He got in his car and he drove us to the bar. He hadn't. He had the nerve to tell the bartender to turn to Channel 3, something like that. We looked up there and we saw the Deaf man who works as a Deaf reporter for that TV station and he was signing. In fact, we had a little bit of a victory. [Interpreter and interviewer converse and pass a note] I'm going to say that next. [Laughs] And then Ted Kennedy... Before we left, Ted Kennedy's lawyer came up to me, gave me a roll of papers, what he said on television. He would see that interpreters would be shown. But he got in trouble over the bridge. You know that story? [Laughs] And that was it. They blamed the television people. They are the ones forced him over [inaudible passage]... Ted Kennedy was an important person. So that's what the story was about. And the Super Bowl did the same thing. They had a Chinese woman signing, and you'd get an actual sign. She was signing so brief I was having to switch it back to the real singer. How many Deaf people were... I think we all were very upset that no one would do anything to file against the Basketball Association. But if I had the money, I would do it. I think you have to be fair, let's be fair. How many Spanish people don't understand English? How many people from Europe don't understand English so I was really depressed. This is 2020 and there has been no change on television people there, so I was hurt. Oh, they show all the [inaudible] dancing and all that. Forget about that.

Mark Souther [00:44:25] So will you explain a little bit more about how this was a partial victory that they ... at the national convention, they're on a platform, so my understanding is that the people there are getting the benefit, but just no one out in the TV audience gets to follow along. Is that correct?

Charles Williams [00:44:50] I think you're wrong. Deaf people are up there and Chinese people are way down on the mid field and they can't see them signing.

Mark Souther [00:44:58] No, I mean at the Democratic National Convention.

Charles Williams [00:45:04] Oh.

Mark Souther [00:45:05] So the people who were present at the convention would have the benefit of the interpreter, but the people watching TV would not see that person.

Charles Williams [00:45:16] No, they made some change after that. Right now, Deaf people who go to convention have a special side, on the left or right side, for sitting and they have an interpreter for them. But away from the speaker. There's a spot here for disability people over here, okay? And that I think, but I'm not sure, I think Jesse Jackson came up with that idea from Chicago. So, it's opened up now, which means Deaf people, Blind people. It looked great. I'm glad it did that.

Charles Williams [00:46:14] [In response to whispered and signed comment from Pat] Oh, at that time, that was before 1980. That's when I filed a lawsuit against Carter and Mondale and Ted Kennedy. There was no interpreter at that time. When I made a file there. That's what you saw there. I'm sorry about that.

Mark Souther [00:46:33] So this is the Carter and Mondale, you know the Democrats. This is 1980.

Charles Williams [00:46:42] Yes. That was in New York City, New York, at that time. I filed [inaudible] t

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