Gillian Prater-Lee interview, 13 July 2024

Abstract

25-year-old Gillian Prater-Lee (they/them) shares their experience growing up in Poughkeepsie, New York, and attending Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. They discuss how social justice has played a key role in shaping their understanding of the city. Prater-Lee recollects their time living at the Catholic Worker House while interning at the Northeast Ohio Coalition for the Homeless (NEOCH). After finishing their MA program at Penn State, Prater-Lee joined Bike and Build, and eventually returned to Cleveland where they joined the Cleveland Catholic Worker and got involved in community organizing in the area of housing justice, including organizing tenants' unions and advocating for the residents of Euclid Beach Mobile Home Park, who faced displacement for a lakefront park.

Interviewee

Prater-Lee, Gillian (interviewee)

Interviewer

White, Bali (interviewer)

Project

Near West Side Housing Activism

Date

7-13-2024

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

51 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Gillian Prater-Lee interview, 13 July 2024" (2024). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 544008.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1277

Related Resources

Near West Side @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Bali White [00:00:03] And we’re live. Hi, everybody. I’m Bali White, here with Gillian Prater-Lee for the Cleveland Regional Oral History Project. Today we’re at Carnegie West Library. It is July 13, 2024. First and foremost, how are you?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:00:19] I’m doing pretty good.

Bali White [00:00:20] Good. Glad that you’re here to speak with me. So we’re going to get into this interview kind of, and I guess, could you introduce yourself when and where you were born? You can share as little or as much about your life as you’d like.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:00:33] Yeah. So I’m Gillian Prater-Lee. I use they/them pronouns. I was born in Rhinebeck, New York, I guess, which is north of Poughkeepsie, New York, where I grew up in 1998, I’m 25. And, yeah, I grew up in the town of Poughkeepsie, New York. My mom works at Vassar College. So both my parents are from Ohio, and they- My dad’s from Elyria, my mom’s from outside of Columbus, and they both went to Oberlin. That’s where they met, and then moved to Poughkeepsie for my mom to take a job at Vassar College. And then I have lived there since then, but I have a lot of family in Ohio. So when I was looking at undergrad programs, there was kind of a night like I was interested in Case and knew about Case kind of because of that reason, and ended up moving here in 2016 and have been kind of in Cleveland off and on since then. So, anyway, I feel like that’s like, the broader story is really funny that my parents grew up in Ohio and then went to New York, and I grew up in New York, went to Ohio. Yeah, I grew up, yeah, Episcopalian. That was a big part of growing up in the Episcopal church. My grandpa is a retired Episcopal minister. There’s, like, a lot of, like, clergy in my family on my mom’s side. Yeah.

Bali White [00:02:16] So, do you have any siblings?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:02:17] Yeah, I have an older sister. She’s a year older than me. She lives in New York City right now and is a public defender close in age.

Bali White [00:02:25] I’m similar in that I have a brother that’s like a year above me. So it’s kind of cool having a sibling close to your age, for sure. So growing up in New York, would you consider it, like, a suburban area where you grew up, or?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:02:42] I grew up in suburban- So there’s, like, the city of Poughkeepsie, which is a small city on the Hudson River. And I grew up in the town of Poughkeepsie, which is kind of, like, surrounds the city of Poughkeepsie and, like, split off from the city of Poughkeepsie at one point. So, like, maybe like an inner-ring suburb kind of thing. But, like, what it’s like, I always think about, when I think of Poughkeepsie is, like, the city of Poughkeepsie school districts are, like, one. It’s like one of the poorest, like, worst performing school districts in the state of New York. But since I grew up in the town of Poughkeepsie, right over that border, I was in the Arlington school district, which was, like, this large school district out into the suburbs. We’re an hour and a half north of New York City, so a lot of people like community, so there’s, like, a lot of money in the school district that I was a part of, even though I lived, like, three blocks from the city of Poughkeepsie High School and a 15 minutes drive from the high school I actually went to. [laughs] Doesn’t really make sense. So, yeah, definitely suburban. But, like, I think part of what got me interested in, like, social justice and some of the work that I do now is, like, growing up so close to that border and, like, seeing it’s just, like, so obvious how different people’s life outcomes and access to resources were. Whether they live, like, on which side of that line they lived on is a different world. Yeah.

Bali White [00:04:10] Absolutely, So can you kind of share with us what your educational background is? You can kind of share, like, K through twelve experience and then later on into, like, college.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:04:19] Yeah. So I went to the Arlington school district. This is like, yeah, like, pretty well-funded, high-performing school district in Upstate New York. Went to high school, took a ton of AP classes, the whole thing. And I was interested in doing, like, civil engineering initially. And so that’s why I ended up going to Case for undergrad, because I was like, I wanted to be an engineer. So I started at Case in 2016 as a civil engineering student, and then I made it through the first year, and I was- Case has, like, a social justice minor program. So, like, that was part of what I was very interested in about going to Case was, like, I could do engineering, but with, like, a social justice orientation. And I got in, and so I was, like, doing the minor, and I was doing the civil engineering, like, prerequisite general coursework my first year of undergrad. And I was like, it’s not that, like, I don’t like physics or math or chemistry, because I like actually really do and think those things are interesting. But I had to take, like, it was, like, my second semester of my first year of college, and I was taking this, like, political and social movements class for the social justice minor that I was in the political science department, and I was also taking this chemistry of materials class in the chemistry department that was a requirement for the civil engineering. And I was like, I just don’t care. Like, I don’t. [laughs] It’s not that I can’t do it. It’s not that I don’t. Like. What? Like, I just, like, it was, like, the difference between, like, plastics, metals, and ceramics at a molecular level. And I was like, I just don’t- Yeah, who the fuck cares? Like, it doesn’t matter. So then I switched to a political science major, and, like, I was political science, social justice, and I did math as well, so I did that for undergrad. And then my junior year of undergrad, I was, like, interested in doing something else, like, studying abroad or something. And then I found this program at CUNY in New York City, City University of New York, their School of Labor and Urban studies. It was, like, a labor studies program, and I was like, well, that sounds awesome. And I was kind of, like, interested in what’s organized labor? Like, what’s labor organizing? Like, I’ve done so some community organizing in undergrad, but, like, what’s labor organizing? Like? So, I lived in New York City first semester, did that program, and then, yeah, finished up at Case and then did my masters at Penn State in geography. I’ve done so much school. [both laugh] I’m like, more school. More school. But I- Yeah, I, like, got interested in, like, urban geography and, yeah, like, actually, like, found really randomly the- My advisor for my masters, this person, Emily, who, like, a lot of her research is actually, like, on Cleveland, and, like, she’s, like, done a lot of cool stuff about Cleveland. So I was, like, found her, and we really connected, and she- I got to be her research assistant and work with her. I was initially in a PhD program. Like, I got admitted to Penn State, and it’s like. It’s, like, called, like, a master’s to PhD. So it’s like, five years. You get your masters, and then you get your PhD. What I really liked about that program was that it was funded.

Bali White [00:08:01] Yeah. [both laugh]

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:08:02] Like, we were talking about, and it was very clear that you could master out. So, like, you could get your masters and leave if you wanted to. Because, like, I wasn’t necessarily committed to doing a PhD. I was like, let me see how I like grad school. And then I, like, moved to State College, Pennsylvania. Tiny town. Well, like, not tiny, like, college town, rural Pennsylvania. And I was like, it is very weird to be, like, studying cities and, like, social issues and living in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania. Like, I don’t want to live in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania. And so I was like, let me master out and get on with my life, and if I want to do more grad school, I will.

Bali White [00:08:45] Yeah, absolutely.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:08:46] So that’s it.

Bali White [00:08:47] So can you share with us your experience of, like, finding an internship?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:08:52] Uh huh. Like, in terms of NEOCH or?

Bali White [00:08:56] Yeah, yeah. So when you were in Cleveland, specifically.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:09:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So I- So that was my sophomore year at Case. I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do that summer and was like, let me stay in Cleveland. And so I was just, like, looking, like, affordable housing, nonprofits. Like, what is going on with housing in Cleveland? Cause, like, that was my interest. And so I found NEOCH and reached out to Chris Knestrick, who’s their director still, and interviewed with him, and, yeah, ended up interning there in the summer of 2018. And I- It was, like, an unpaid internship, and, like, I needed a place to live, so he was like, well, I’m part of this thing called the Cleveland Catholic Worker. You could live in the Catholic Worker House and, like, do some, like, service through the worker community and then also intern at NEOCH. And I was, like, perfect. And, yeah, I feel like the rest is kind of, like, history. It’s really, like, it was really funny because it seemed, like, pretty happenstance that all had happened, but I feel like it’s really shaped my life.

Bali White [00:10:15] Right.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:10:16] Like, I wouldn’t have moved back to Cleveland without all that.

Bali White [00:10:18] So you had mentioned the Cleveland Catholic Worker. So you had ended up living in the Catholic Worker House. Is this the one on Fulton?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:10:27] Yeah.

Bali White [00:10:28] Awesome, so this was your sophomore year. So what year?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:10:33] Yeah, so summer of 2018 is when I lived in the Fulton House.

Bali White [00:10:37] Okay, awesome. And then, so with the Catholic Worker, can you kind of, like, share your experiences living in that house in terms of, like, your duties and, of course, the people you met along the way seems like an important aspect?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:10:51] Yeah, for sure. So I- Yeah, I only lived there for a couple months, but, like, was still involved throughout the rest of my undergrad in different ways. But what I was doing, like, what Chris and I talked about was instead of, like, doing, like, 40 hours a week working at NEOCH, I was kind of, like, 20 hours a week working at NEOCH and then doing more, like, work and service around the Catholic Worker. So I was helping out at the Catholic Worker Storefront. I think I was, two days a week. I was trying to be over there helping do service and kind of run that space and then, like, cooking and cleaning and all those sorts of things that kind of come with being part of that community. The house, I feel like it’s, like, changed. And I don’t know if this has been kind of part of your other interviews, but six years ago, it was really a full house. I think there were, like, seven of us living in the house that summer. So it was, like, me, my friend Wilbur, my friend Erica, Clarence, Patrick, and then Llana, who was one of the ARSP volunteers who was living in the house. And then Dan moved in at the end of the summer. So it was, like, a really full house. And, like, I think something that’s, like, shifted is that has, like, the house communities kind of, like, I feel like the house used to have, like, a really distinct, like, house identity that was separate from, like, the Catholic Worker Community. There was, like, a house community, and so we’d have regular house meetings, and, like, there was some, like, I feel, like, autonomy and, like, decision making that was, like, from the house. Like, if somebody wanted to stay at the house, like, who was visiting from out of town or something like that, that would be, like, a house decision, not, like, a community decision, because it was the house. So, like, some of that stuff, I feel, like, has shifted. And I guess, like, one story that really has stuck with me from that summer and I think was, like, pretty pivotal is that. Oh, my gosh. This is, like, the story of that summer. But me. So me and my friends Erica and Wilbur, who were living in the house, were- Erica came up with the idea for this spray paint stencil that said, “Your Luxury is Our Displacement.” And we made the stencil, and we were like, let’s go spray paint around Ohio City. [laughs] And so we made it, and we kept talking about it, kept talking about it. And then we finally, one night, we went, have you seen the movie “Sorry To Bother You”?

Bali White [00:13:36] No, I haven’t.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:13:37] Okay. It’s, like, very, like, radical critique of capitalism kind of thing. So a bunch of us went to see that movie. We came back. We were, like, really fired up and angry at the world and stuff. We were like, okay, let’s bring that stencil out tonight. And so the three of us were, like, sitting around waiting for it to get dark, and then Erica fell asleep. [both laugh] So me and Wilbur were like, okay, we’re just gonna do it without her. And, like, we did and went and, like, spray painted around the neighborhood, and we were so stupid. [laughs] We got caught on, like, security footage. And, like, it was all the drama in the neighborhood that, like, it was so crazy. It was so stupid. But it was like, everyone was like, Who are these people spray painting? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And, like, drama in, like, the- Yeah, just like, drama. And everyone was talking about it. And so when it, like, did kind of unfold was, like, this one weekend, and Wilbur and I were both out of town, a bunch of cop cars showed up at the Catholic Worker House asking for me and Wilbur, like, by name. So I’m like, first off, like, who- How do they know? How do you know who we are? Like, Jesus. But, like, asking for us by name. And, like, I think, fortunately for us, we weren’t there. But, like, the cops got into it with, like, Mike Fiala and Mark Pestak. Like, we’re out there, [laughs] like, what the fuck? And Chris Knestrick, too, I think, was part of that. So we eventually, like, so they all called us and was like, this is what’s going on. And so when we came back, like, eventually, like, the community relations police officer, whoever, did come out and talk to us, and he was like, the council member wants to prosecute. Shut up. Or we can, like, work out a deal and you guys can do some community service. And to which I was like, we already do community service. Like, that’s like, the whole point of, like, this community. But so I was like, we’ll continue to do community service and we’ll clean up the tags. And I think the really funny thing about that is that, so there were, like, I think, six spots that we did the spray paint, and there were a couple that we painted over. And there was one spot we, like, sanded off on the sidewalk, and there was one more spot that was, like, on the sidewalk, but we couldn’t, like, plug in- There was nowhere to plug in the sanders. So we just painted over it. It was over here on Lorain in front of that, like a funeral home that they’re redoing next to the garden.

Bali White [00:16:25] Yes.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:16:26] And so we painted over it, but they were at that time, like, starting to build those apartments that are next to it. Like, before that was like a parking lot. So they’d be out there and, like, power washing the sidewalk and stuff. So they would power wash the sidewalk and the top layer of spray paint would come off and reveal the stencil. It’s- So this cop is, like, emailing me. Like, you guys didn’t go out and do it again, did you? And I was like, I don’t know what to tell you. I’ve painted over it, like, three times, and they just- The developers keep power washing it off, so it’s actually still there six years later, which I just think is cool.

Bali White [00:17:07] That’s definitely something that I’ve highlighted is the whole gentrification of this area. Luxury is displacing communities, which is a huge thing, especially in the Near West Side, because you have all these new businesses coming up where, you know, all of these people who once lived in these areas are being kind of forced out and can’t afford to live here anymore. I think that the message was there, and although obviously repercussions suck, but it was something you did that was, you know, it had a message.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:17:40] Yeah. And I think it really shaped me as an activist because, like, I was like, damn, the cops are, you know, like, it was, like, pretty formative.

Bali White [00:17:48] Yeah, it’s definitely kind of scary, too, to kind of, you know, not knowing what’s gonna happen after you do that.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:17:55] Yeah, for sure.

Bali White [00:17:56] But, you know, that’s kind of why you’re into activism. Get these messages out. So I’m curious, because you’re not necessarily Catholic, so, like, what I’ve noticed with, like, the Catholic Workers, you don’t really have to be this Catholic person to be involved. So do you think that is something that you’ve noticed that, like, a lot of people involved aren’t necessarily, like, the most, like, religious person?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:18:24] Yeah, I think there’s a spectrum. I think there are people who would, like, still identify as Catholic, who grew up Catholic and would still identify as Catholic. There’s, like, people who, like, grew up Catholic and aren’t Catholic anymore, but are Catholic Workers and, like, have Catholicism really influenced their life. And then there’s, like, people like me who I’d say, like, aren’t Catholic, were never Catholic, but, like, are still, like, Christian in some way. And there’s definitely people in the community who, like, aren’t Christian and, like, aren’t religious. And so I think, yeah, I think there’s a pretty, like, diverse spectrum of people in that regard in our Catholic Worker. And I think it’s also, like, interesting to see, like, in Catholic Worker, like, that varies. Like, there’s Catholic Worker communities across the country, and, like, in some of these other ones, I think they’re more kind of cohesively Catholic.

Bali White [00:19:20] One thing I also noticed, it’s very intergenerational. So, like, if people, you know, in their twenties, like us, and then, of course, you have much older people, which is, I think really interesting to see, like, the two differing age groups really involved together have this community. So you had mentioned you started your MA program and you were focusing on human geography. So can you kind of, like, talk a little bit about your experience with that? Just kind of, like, being in a program and then eventually, like, writing your ethnography?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:19:55] Yeah, for sure. So I- Yeah, I was, like, interested in, like, like, like, I- Sometimes I think if I was that Case, I should have just transferred to Cleveland State and done Urban Studies, but that’s not what I did. That’s whatever. So I was in the master’s in geography at Penn State from 2020 to 2022, and it was a very- It is really theoretical. You know, it was, like, really, really, like, we were reading a lot of, like, political theory. I took, like, an economic geography class. That was awesome. But, like, I think it gave me, really sharpened my analysis around urban issues, social issues, housing issues. Understanding the role of finance in our cities today, part of why there’s so much development here isn’t necessarily because people aren’t going to live there. It’s because it’s a good bet for giant investing firms and to invest in this development. It’s not about housing. It’s about profit, you know? And, like, those conversations, like, those, like, it’s just become so disconnected from, like, the reality of, like, actual, like, lived experience of place. So, yeah, I think, like, it really, like, sharpened, like, that political analysis that I have to be in that master’s program. And then I did some GIS stuff and some spatial analysis classes and stuff like that. That was a little more practical. But, yeah, I was in the program. It was during COVID I started in fall 2020. So I actually lived in State College for a semester and then decided to move up to Buffalo, New York, where my partner at the time was living, and move in with him. And so I lived up there from January to August of 2021, I think. And that’s where I did my fieldwork that upcoming summer. So I did a- I was really interested in, like, how, like, small, more progressive nonprofits, like, navigate just like, this whole, like, okay, so you say you’re trying to do housing justice, community organizing. You’re trying to, like, address these sorts of issues, but how do you do that? Like, through the nonprofit sector with all the kind of constraints and contradictions of that, and then just, like, the reality that you’re going up against multinational corporations and you’re, like, three people with the tenants on your side, maybe, hopefully. So I decided to do an ethnography of PUSH, which is this, like, small housing nonprofit in Buffalo that started. It’s pretty similar to NEOCH. I mean, I guess NEOCH is more focused on homelessness, and PUSH is more focused on housing. So they, like, develop affordable housing and also organize tenants. But I was interested in just, like, how they were. Like, as an organization trying to navigate that whole space and how, like, staff, like, felt about that. And so, yeah, I, like, did- I guess I did, like, an internship there, and then also, like, interviewed the people who are working there, and then also, like, interviewed a bunch of people who worked at, like, other affordable housing nonprofits kind of in the region. It was weird because it was, like, all remote, because it was 2021, and I had to, like, I think I was the only person, in my, like, master’s cohort that actually did field work that summer because it was just. It was COVID. Yeah. Like, I had to go through the IRB process, and they were like, you can do it, but just remote.

Bali White [00:24:00] That’s a whole other, like, you know, like, thing that you have to do, like, doing things remote. It was definitely a big, a big thing during the COVID years. And, I mean, props to you. I don’t know how you did it, and it’s very admirable.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:24:14] It is crazy. It was like, I don’t- Yeah. Jeez. [laughs]

Bali White [00:24:19] So while you were writing your ethnography, could you kind of, like, talk about how it felt after you finished? I feel like that’s a really big thing. A lot of research is done to fully, like, write a paper of that level.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:24:32] For sure. Yeah. So I- It was a lot of work. It was. I think I really- It was interesting, I guess, that even from doing such- I’m so excited about your project because you’re out here and really engaged, and I feel like. Not that I was just circumstantially, I wasn’t engaged as much as I could have been in that community. And I feel like there are things, like, I missed, but it was still cool to see how much I got out of it. Like, I wrote a whole paper on it. So, yeah, I did the fieldwork, and then I did my data analysis and kind of read the paper my second year of my masters, and then I did defend it and submit my actual master thesis, whatever, that spring, and then I actually published it in a journal called the Radical Housing Journal, which is really cool. In the fall of 2022. It was just really cool to see it published. It’s very small. It is very small and very activist focused, open-source journal. So it’s not, like, like, in, like, there’s, like, bigger, like, housing research journals and bigger, like, urban studies journals that would probably, like, probably have different goals than that journal, but it was just, like, cool to be part of that and, like, be part of this, like, activist housing discourse, whatever.

Bali White [00:26:19] And being published, I mean, that’s a victory, in a sense.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:26:22] Mm hmm. Oh, yeah. It was pretty cool.

Bali White [00:26:24] So when you were writing this, was this, like, a kind of, like, a few semesters it took you to write, or was it all, like, within, I guess, a 16-week semester?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:26:33] Yeah. Since we were such- Since Penn State is such, like, a research-focused program, what it was was that our first year, we did coursework, and then our second semester of our first year, you had your proposal for your master’s thesis. And then I did my fieldwork that summer, and then the second year, I think I took- Maybe I took one actual, like, class each semester, but the second semester, I didn’t even- I just, like, audited a class. Like, it was- Yeah, it was like, that whole second year was really about writing your thesis. So, yeah, it was cool to, like, really, like, even versus just, like, a semester-long research project. It was, like, really the focus of the masters was, like, producing your own research. Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

Bali White [00:27:20] So after you finished your MA program, what was your next step?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:27:25] Yeah, so I think part of why I, like, I finished my- So many people were behind on their, On their master’s theses, because that’s just, like, how it works. But I was like, I need to finish this paper and defend it and graduate by May 2022, because summer, June 2022, I did this Bike and Build trip where I rode my bike across the country. And. Yeah, like, I’m not doing anything related to grad school at all. [both laugh] I’m not bringing my computer. I’m not doing anything. I’m gonna be gone. Yeah. So that was from, like, June to August of 2023, I biked from Portsmouth, New Hampshire, to Bellingham, Washington. And we, like, helped build affordable housing along the way with, like, Habitat for Humanity, mostly, but also other housing organizations.

Bali White [00:28:18] How did you hear about, like, Bike and Build?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:28:21] Yeah, so I- And I think sometimes it’s interesting because I’m like, what? Like, maybe that’s part of how I first got interested in housing was that they stayed at. So the bike trips stay at, like, churches or public schools or, you know, wherever will host us for overnights and then camp a little bit, but, like, try and have host organizations to work with. So one of the Bike and Build routes, stayed at the church that I went to growing up. So, like, they were like, I remember being like eight and ten and whatever and being like these cool people in their twenties riding their bikes across the country. I want to do that someday. And then I was like, well, this is the perfect time to do it when I finish my masters. So it was been in the back of my mind for a really long time. And so I was, like, glad to actually do it at that point.

Bali White [00:29:12] That’s amazing, yeah. I wasn’t even familiar with that, so that’s really cool. Do you have any experiences and stories that you find kind of crucial from that time?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:29:21] Oh, my gosh, so many. I mean, it was just like the best, like, the most special thing. I still talk about it every day. I’m like, oh, on my bike trip, blah, blah, blah, blah. [laughs] But I think it was just, like, really cool to just, like, spin and, like, I wasn’t working, you know, I wasn’t doing school. I was just, like, having fun. It was just, like, really nice to just go and do that and just, like, be outside and feel that much more. Kind of connected to, like, the world around me and to, like, nature and all of that. Instead of, like, being in grad school was so intellectual and just thinking, thinking, thinking, and it was just so nice to just be out in the world. Yeah, literally take a break.

Bali White [00:30:08] Oh, for sure.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:30:09] Yeah.

Bali White [00:30:10] So I guess, like, did you know anybody or were you like, kind of all on your own and then you met everybody through it?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:30:17] Yeah, I didn’t know anyone beforehand. It was like, not anyone I was friends with or anything. We did, like, a couple- So, like, part of it was like this, like, affordable housing curriculum, like, learn about housing and housing justice stuff. So we had some, like, Zoom calls for that beforehand, but really it was like, show up in New Hampshire and figure it out. [laughs] Yeah, it was awesome.

Bali White [00:30:40] Yeah. So you, you mentioned, like, when you, like, kind of noticed the people sitting at your church, they were all, like, in their twenties, like the similar age group now?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:30:52] Yeah, it was people from, like, there were a couple people who were in undergrad, and then most of us were, like, in our early or mid twenties, and then a couple people were like, 30 or 31, but yeah, that was kind of the demographic.

Bali White [00:31:05] Are there any specific states that you remember that were really crucial on this journey?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:31:12] Well, it was just so interesting. It felt like once you got- I’m so used to the Northeast, and once we got west of, like, Madison, Wisconsin, it just got so rural so quickly. And I, like, like, Montana. We were in Montana for two weeks.

Bali White [00:31:32] Oh, wow.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:31:33] Because Montana is huge. And it was just like, okay, this is Montana, and it’s just, like, cattle ranches. There’s just cows everywhere. And then you show up. Then we went through Glacier National Park, which is, like, amazing. And then you’re in the Pacific- Like, once you get on the other side of Glacier, it was, like, so beautiful in Pacific Northwest, and, yeah, and it was also, like, interesting with the housing builds and, like, the organizations we were talking to in these different places. Like, we did some builds in, like, east. Like, we, like, I guess, like, eastern Washington state. And it was, like, where there had been, like, a big forest fire in, like, 2014, 2015. And so I guess there’s, like, the ways that, like, we don’t think about that here as part of, like, housing is, like, forest fires, but, like, it’s a huge deal out there in, like, the northwest. So, yeah, just, like, the different things that were going on with housing in these different places, it’s really cool.

Bali White [00:32:34] Especially, you know, Midwest, like, being in Cleveland. Like, you don’t think about, like, natural disasters like that that displace communities and get people out of their homes, which is crazy. It’s definitely eye-opening. And it seems like your travels really kind of were pivotal in, like, your understanding of it all.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:32:52] Yeah, it was just really cool to be like, oh, there’s so much out here. There’s so much people doing this stuff. It’s just so different than studying it. It’s like being out there.

Bali White [00:33:01] Exactly. Engaging with people and seeing all that. Very important. So after that, could you talk about your return to Cleveland?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:33:10] Mm hmm. Yeah. So I moved back here. I went back to my parents for, like, a month, and I was like, okay, I’m gonna move back to Cleveland. I didn’t have a job. That was the whole thing. I tried a little bit. I, like, tried a little bit to apply for jobs while I was on that trip, but I was, like, just gonna have to figure it out when I’m done. I’m, like, riding my bike across the country. So I went back to my parents’ house, and then I moved here in September 2022. And I was just here, like, applying for jobs. I was living in Tremont with one of my friends at that point and just, like, applied for jobs and then finally got a job, the job at NEOCH, which I started in January of 2023, I think. But I was, like, unemployed for, like, five months, and it was, like, it was worth it. It was worth it. [laughs]

Bali White [00:33:58] You need the break sometimes.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:33:59] Yeah.

Bali White [00:34:01] So you mentioned you got the job at NEOCH. So kind of. Can you describe, like, what your role is there?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:34:08] Yeah, so I’m not working there anymore. Yeah, now I’m working for the city of Cleveland. Yeah.

Bali White [00:34:13] Awesome. Yeah, I guess. What was your role at NEOCH then?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:34:17] Yes, I was working as a housing justice community organizer at NEOCH. So we were organizing tenants in, like, buildings into, like, tenants unions to try and, like, advocate for issues that, like, affected them all, whether that was, like, absentee landlords, like, conditions issues in their buildings, raising rents, you know, any of these sorts of issues. Like, can we bring a group of tenants together and use that collective power to, like, address these issues? So we’re doing a lot of that, and then we also- There’s, like, Homeless Congress, which is, like, an organizing space, bringing together people experiencing homelessness to try and address issues in the shelter system. And then the project that I was working on a lot was the Euclid Beach mobile home community. So that is a mobile home park in Collinwood on the east side. So it’s like a privately owned mobile home park on the waterfront. And in 2021, I think the park was bought by the Western Reserve Land Conservancy, housing or not even housing, land conservation, nature conservation nonprofit. And they went through, like, a two-year planning process. And in February of 2023, a couple weeks after I started at New York, announced that they were going to close the mobile home park and turn it into green space. And so we were- The tenants had already kind of formed a group at that point, like, the residents of the mobile home park called the United Residents of Euclid Beach, UREB. And at that point, we were like, okay, let’s kind of do everything we can and explore every route we can to keeping this park open, and if not doing that, at least getting, like, fair compensation for people when they have to leave. So, like, those were the goals of the organizing. And so we- Yeah, I was, like, super-engaged over there, really, for my whole time working at NEOCH. Like, we’d meet every week, there’s a leadership committee, and then there’s the full body and doing everything we can to push the Land Conservancy to explore other options. And so at this point, where it stands is August 31, 2024, a month from now, the mobile home park is set to close. We were able to get the Land Conservancy to commit to following the Uniform Relocation Act, which is, like, a federal standard. It says if you take- So the federal government says, if you take any federal money on a project that displaces people from their homes, there’s, like, certain steps you got to follow in terms of compensating, relocating people. So it’s kind of like eminent domain. But since the Land Conservancy was not, that we were aware of, taking any federal money on that project, they weren’t legally required to follow the Uniform Relocation Act, but we got them basically to, like, voluntarily follow it. And so at this point, most people have been relocated from the park. There’s, like, maybe, like, a dozen people who are still- Well, there’s more than a dozen people who are still living there. But from my understanding, there’s, like, a dozen people who really haven’t engaged with the relocation process and who are still there. Like, I don’t- I don’t know what will happen to those people on August 31.

Bali White [00:38:06] I mean, I read that there are some people living there for decades that was, like, their lifelong home.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:38:12] Yeah, it’s just-

Bali White [00:38:13] And they were in, like, a pretty prime location.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:38:16] Yeah.

Bali White [00:38:16] That’s why they want to make it a green space.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:38:18] Exactly.

Bali White [00:38:19] Yeah, it’s- It’s scary when you see that kind of thing, like, happen. Like, what happens to these people after the fact that their homes are taken?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:38:29] Yeah, it’s just crazy because it’s like, I get that the argument will be, oh, well, they don’t own the home that their land is on, or you own your home, but you rent the land that it’s on. And that’s why this is able to happen. But you don’t expect something like this to happen to your home. And then people say, oh, well, they’re mobile homes. Can’t you move them? But most of them can’t be moved. And then there’s just, like, it’s a lot of, like, retired people, people who’ve lived there for decades, people who are on fixed incomes, people who have health issues, people who’ve lived in Collinwood their whole life. You know what I mean? It’s, like, really is a community, and it’s people with limited resources, and it’s not so simple, like, with the insane nature of housing as it is. Like, it is affordable housing, and it’s not so simple to just pick someone up and move them and expect them to be able to have the same quality of life somewhere else. Like, it’s a really unique situation, and it is affordable housing. And so, yeah, people are moving to other mobile home parks or moving to, like, single-family homes or becoming renters, but none of it is like, it’s like if you’re retired, you want to take on a mortgage, that’s crazy. They’re saying, oh, if you’re 60, well, you could qualify for this mortgage. You said, I’m 60? Yeah, like, that’s crazy.

Bali White [00:39:50] So I guess- How was your participation received by, like, UREB and the general community?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:40:01] Yeah, I feel like I had pretty good relationships over there. I mean, I was working really, really closely with those folks, I think. I mean, so I think there were probably trying to think, like, 150 households in the park. It’s a pretty big mobile home park. And there was, like, maybe like 50 of those households that, like, I knew, you know, like, knew by name. They knew me. And out of those, there was, like, a leadership group, which was, like a dozen people. And I think those, like, that leadership group I had really close relationships with and worked, like, really well with to, like, figure out how we were going to organize around this. But I do think there’s still, like, out of that, like, 150 people and stuff, there are people who’d be like, fuck off. [laughs] Like, who are you? And I don’t, like, why are you in my house? And also associated us with the land conservancy, you know, didn’t really understand what was going on and that we were, like, trying to be on their side and trying to support them. But I feel, like, pretty good. And they’re thinking about whether to do some sort of, like, commemoration at the end of, like, when the park does close, like some sort of party or, you know, something to kind of commemorate that day. So if they do and I’m invited, I would, you know, definitely go, yeah, good. Yeah.

Bali White [00:41:21] So I guess, switching gears, could you tell us about the Home for Every Neighbor initiative and kind of what your involvement is?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:41:29] Yeah, so, yeah, so I started working at the City of Cleveland Community Development Department in March of this year, and so I work- Yeah, so community development, what a lot of that looks like is us working with partners who are, you know, providing services around, like, housing and a lot of stuff with housing. But, like, CDCs, we fund a lot of CDCs, and the projects that- Most of the projects I work on are related to homelessness. So I manage grants that go to some of the big shelters in Cleveland. So 2100. And Norma Herr. So the City of Cleveland gets money from the federal government, from HUD, to give to nonprofits, basically, who do homeless services. So I, like, manage those grants. So, like, the reporting and the reporting and finances with the nonprofits and the reporting back up to HUD. So we’re kind of a pass-through in that way. So that’s what most of my job is. And then there is also this Home For Every Neighbor initiative, which is, like, a special project, which is $2 million of general fund money, so less restricted money from the city’s budget, that is dedicated towards ending unsheltered homelessness in Cleveland. So getting people who are sleeping out on the streets, like, the people who NEOCH would work with, like, unsheltered people, mostly directly into housing, and, like, a really, like, housing-focused approach versus sometimes it feels like- It doesn’t always feel like we have this whole housing nonprofit sector. Right? But sometimes it’s more about keeping people in shelter and keeping people inside, which makes sense. And people need a place to sleep while they’re homeless, but the resources aren’t necessarily focused on getting people actually housed. And so we’re really trying to focus on getting people housed in this program. So, yeah, it’s an initiative coming from the mayor’s office. There’s, like, a senior strategist to the mayor on homelessness named Emily Collins, who’s been around Cleveland recently, and he was kind of leading the initiative. So it’s been really cool. It’s been really interesting. I think- I’m still trying to figure out what, like, my involvement will be in it. Definitely some of that, like, grants management piece. So, like, we’ll use this money and then contract with partners who will be doing, like, street outreach, who will be administering rental assistance, you know, who will be kind of playing all these roles that’ll be, like, local nonprofits doing, like, doing the work, and then the city kind of collaborating with them, funding them, and then kind of do the strategy and coordination behind the project.

Bali White [00:44:47] So this is still kind of, like, a relatively new initiative?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:44:50] Yeah. So we put out the request for proposals in February, and right now are kind of starting the pilot of the project. So it’s very much in the works.

Bali White [00:45:02] Well, I hope it works out. Sounds like it’s really important. So I guess I do have a kind of a few questions about Cleveland in general.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:45:11] Oh, my gosh.

Bali White [00:45:11] So I guess, what kind of made you stay in Cleveland? Why Cleveland and not, like, stay back in New York?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:45:19] Yeah, I feel like I, yeah, just, like, found a community here. I felt like that much, like, I’ve been involved, like, I’ve lived a lot of different places at this point, but this, like, it felt- I felt, like, really, like, grounded in the community here and especially in the Catholic Worker, it feels like such- Just like a home to me, in a way.

Bali White [00:45:43] That’s definitely something I heard from many people I’ve interviewed. They all have the same thing to say. That Catholic Worker felt like home.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:45:50] Yeah. Yeah, it’s been so- That’s just been, like, awesome and, like, yeah. Like, when I moved back in here, I knew I could move in with one of my friends. And now I actually rent from Mark Pestak, who I know you interviewed. [crosstalk] So it’s, like, very much- It just, like- Yeah, it just, like, feels like I’m, like, part of a community, and I live two houses up from Mike Fiala and Maryellen, like, literally. [both laugh] So, like, I’m very kind of tapped into the Catholic Worker stuff. I also think, like, versus, like, I did live in New York City. I’m from the east coast, and I just feel like sometimes things are- Like, I feel everything’s so rushed there and everything’s so busy and everything’s so expensive that it feels very hard to, like, build a life there as a young person versus, like, here. Like, I can- Like, it seems, like, a little more realistic to be like, okay, what does my future look like? What does, like- Yeah, just, like, building a life that’s a little more balanced.

Bali White [00:46:53] I mean, I love Cleveland. I can- I’ve never lived anywhere else but Cleveland, so I don’t have that experience. But I’m sure, like, anytime I do I travel I get homesick a little bit.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:47:05] Right, Cleveland’s awesome.

Bali White [00:47:07] So, looking forward, what changes do you hope to see in Cleveland?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:47:11] Wow, that’s a good question. I mean, I’m really excited about the Home For Every Neighbor initiative. I think it will be really good in terms of getting people housed. It’s just- Yeah, it’s just, like, really, you know, like, hard to see, like, this, like, skyrocketing rates of homelessness in our community, which is like, yeah, just like- That’s one thing that’s obviously what I want to see. I think in terms of, like, other things that would be, like, awesome to see in Cleveland is, like, the creation and preservation of affordable housing across the city. I feel like I’m trying to think about this from my own perspective instead of what is the City of Cleveland doing? Because I have a different opinion than necessarily what the mayor’s doing or what the community development department is doing. Yeah. Yeah. Like, tenant protections, those sorts of things. I know source of income discrimination is a huge thing, something we’re starting to look at in Cleveland. Like, if you have a voucher, it doesn’t mean that you can use it if people are going to say no Section 8. Right? So those sorts of things. And then I think more, like, locally and in terms of the Catholic Worker, I think it’s just, like, there is a lot of change in transition on the Near West Side with the new development and just, like, rising cost of living in this community. And I think I just, like, hope that, like, because I found out, like, I found such a home here, even, like, in the midst of that, like, just that we can kind of figure out, like, as a community, like, how we want to move forward, you know? And I don’t really know what that looks like, especially, like, as our community has kind of shrunk and it just- Yeah, it feels like there’s a lot of questions, but just, like, what does, like, us moving forward together look like?

Bali White [00:49:27] Right. Yeah. The future is unknown.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:49:30] Yeah, [laughs] definitely is.

Bali White [00:49:32] So if you’re comfortable sharing, besides, like, affordable housing, is there any other social causes that you feel, like, really strongly about?

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:49:40] Yeah, for sure. I think, like- Yeah. Like, I mean, like, I’m queer and trans, and I think, like, LGBTQ protections, rights and justice around those things is definitely something on my mind, especially as, like, awful and horrible things keep happening at the statewide level in Ohio. So that’s one thing that’s close to my heart. Yeah, I’ve done some, like, cycling advocacy stuff, too, but, like, it’s not- You know what I mean? It’s like- Yeah, it’s like an issue, but, I don’t know, maybe not the most pressing issue in my mind. Yeah.

Bali White [00:50:27] Well, I Thank you very much for your participation and just your effort in being here and recording this interview with me. Thank you very much.

Gillian Prater-Lee [00:50:36] Yeah. Thanks for taking the time to listen to all of us. [laughs]

Bali White [00:50:39] Absolutely. So I am Bali White here with Gillian Prater-Lee. It is July 13, 2024. We’re going to finish up this interview. Cool.

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