Abstract

Whitnye Long Jones is the Founder and Executive Director of Organic Connects. Organic Connects is a youth environmental program that supports high school graduates interested in the environmental field. They provide pathways to work in both the environmental and outdoor field. In this oral history, Whitnye describes her past and present work as a northeast Ohio environmental leader.

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Interviewee

Long Jones, Whitnye (interviewee)

Interviewer

Rosser, Arrye (interviewer); Schnack, Erich (participant)

Project

Cuyahoga Valley National Park

Date

8-2-2021

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

120 minutes

Transcript

Arrye Rosser [00:00:00] Doing some basic stuff for the tape to just establish who we are, where we are. So my name is Arrye Rosser from Cuyahoga Valley National Park. I'm sitting here with Whitnye Long Jones, the founder and executive director of Organic Connects, and we are doing this oral history on August 2, 2021. And we're in the stone cottage at the Hines Hill campus of Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Our tech person is Erich Schnack. So, hello, Whitnye. How are you?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:00:36] I'm good. How are you, Arrye?

Arrye Rosser [00:00:39] Doing well. Let's just start off with some basic things. What's your full name?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:00:44] Whitnye Long Jones.

Arrye Rosser [00:00:47] And what year were you born?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:00:49] 1980.

Arrye Rosser [00:00:52] And tell us a little bit about your family growing up to just kind of get a sense of where you grew up and. And your background.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:00:59] Absolutely. I was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and not too many people know that until I tell them. They're like, really? But I moved here young. I have four brothers, two sisters by my father who I wasn't raised with, but I've known them more in my adult life. So my brothers are everything to me, my whole family, don't get me wrong, but I know my brothers better. So being the only girl was a privilege and I loved it. Super protective family, second to youngest. Let's see. We moved to Cleveland when I was about 8. My father got another job and, you know, in his career in sales, and we moved to Cleveland. Cleveland- raised in Cleveland Heights. Spent most of my school age career, you know, here in Cleveland Heights. And I went to, actually as a young adult. I went to Case Western right out of high school, Reserve University, and ended up moving to Providence, Rhode island when I was 25. That was beautiful. If anyone's never been there, I highly recommend it. Lived there for five years and came back to Cleveland in 2011 and have been here since. So I will say that growing up without boys was- was good for my connection to nature. So playing outside, climbing trees, you know, not being afraid to pick up the bugs and get dirty was the beginning of how it started. My father is not so much like the fisher, the outdoor kind of person, but as children, you know, we want to explore, we want to play. So I was grateful for those opportunities and the different environments that I've lived in as well to help with that.

Arrye Rosser [00:02:46] What kind of work did your family do, like your dad or your mom?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:02:51] So my father was a salesman for a little while. He had a full ride to, oh what college did he go to? It's a college in. Right outside of Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I can't believe I'm forgetting the name of it. Basketball scholarship. So right out of college, he was a referee, he was a coach. So sports was really big in my family. All of my brothers played every sport you can imagine. I played volleyball and softball, and he did that. My father was also in the radio industry for a while. He has a very charming personality, and that's why he ended up going into sales, because he's really good at that. When we came to Cleveland, he did sales for a little while, but ended up being the administrative. The. I'm sorry, not administrative, the athletic director for Cleveland Metropolitan School district for almost 30 years before he retired. Yeah. And my mom is an account executive, so she would be the person for large companies like Shell Oil when we were in Oklahoma, running credit background checks for large organizations and approving and providing credit to big companies.

Arrye Rosser [00:04:04] It's always interesting to ask these questions because why would you ask them otherwise? You know, you get to know people. Yes, yes.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:04:10] Or what the parents do in general. I think it's interesting. I wasn't expecting that question.

Arrye Rosser [00:04:13] Yeah. Just like the context of people, I think helps you to understand them. You know.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:04:18] I agree.

Arrye Rosser [00:04:19] So how do you identify yourself culturally?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:04:22] I identify myself as a Black American. And should I expand on that?

Arrye Rosser [00:04:29] Go ahead.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:04:29] Okay. I think that some of the titles that are given to people in society define who they are, and that definition can be good or bad. You know, and unfortunately for a lot of people of color living in the United States, there's a disconnect from where they're originally from. So whether that is Africa or another country or this country, sometimes you just don't know. So instead of calling myself African American because there's nothing in my history that leads back to Africa, I just consider myself Black American.

Arrye Rosser [00:05:09] That's actually- This is an interesting question always, because we're- when we do a lot of writing, we try to think how best should we use terms interchangeably? And we've had people answer questions on a broad spectrum of answers, which tells us, I don't know that- Well, there's no one right answer. People have different terms that make sense for them. How has your cultural identity been important to you?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:05:36] It's been very important. I think identity for anyone helps to figure out the direction that your life is going to go. So I've had friends, but I was mentioning Providence, Rhode Island. Lived out there five years. And when I was there, there are people from two. Let's see, there were 200 different nationalities when I- Super diversity. One of the reasons why I loved it. And, you know, I would work with people who would say, oh yeah, you know, my from Czechoslovakia, my family's from there, or I'm from Guatemala or, you know, just another country, I'm from Italy. And they would say we go back and visit, you know, our grandparents or our ancestors, and we have homes that date back a couple hundred years. And I can't do that, you know, so just really listening to other people's stories got heavy for me in the sense that I was unable to relate to them, but wanted to be able to. So that encouraged me to do a little digging, you know, a little research on my family history and come to find out that we have Creek on my paternal- I'm sorry, my mother's father's side. How do you say that? Maternal grandfather. Maternal father. Yeah. So Creek, Native American. So we still aren't able to verify that 100%. So. So I feel like I am from this land that I'm living on right now. So that is a little bit of consolation and helping to define what my identity and the identity of my family is.

Arrye Rosser [00:07:14] Are you addicted to Henry Louis Gates is finding your roots?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:07:18] I like it.

Arrye Rosser [00:07:19] I feel like I saw my eyes get really. I know. It's like I feel like I'm addicted to- I think part of the motivator also just being fascinated by African American history and trying to restitch the stories together.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:07:36] I think it's important I do too. And unfortunately, a lot of that information was taken from so many people. So you have to do a little bit more digging and it helps to ask questions to the older folks in your family before they pass on so you can at least get that word of mouth information.

Arrye Rosser [00:07:54] Yeah. When hope that I have when this is kind of the start of this project, but I see it as many years, and I'm hoping it inspires oral histories that people do within their own communities. Because it's really easy to lose information.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:08:10] It is. I agree.

Arrye Rosser [00:08:11] Even I started Covid doing my own family just because I thought, you know, what if somebody dies? You always think you have forever with them and, you know.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:08:19] Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Arrye Rosser [00:08:22] I say that just because you work with kids in your organization, it's interesting to think about that as something that's a powerful, powerful thing that you can do.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:08:33] I agree. And not taking it for granted. Taking advantage of, like you're saying, the family and whatever information you can get your hands on right now.

Arrye Rosser [00:08:42] Yeah, yeah. Has your cultural identity changed over your life? You see yourself differently than when you were a kid.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:08:52] I don't know that I would say differently. I think things change naturally because we. Our views of life change as we get older. I would also say that, you know, as a child, my parents wanted to make sure that we had the best education, the best opportunities, access to any and everything. So when I was younger, I did go to predominantly white schools in Oklahoma. I mean, Tulsa, the city is predominantly white. So unless you're living in a Black neighborhood or a neighborhood that's, you know, people of color, then chances are you're going to be going to a school that's predominantly white in Tulsa specifically, and Sand Springs, which is where my father is from, the suburb of Tulsa. So I guess as a child, I felt welcome, you know, accepted. You know, as a child, at five years old, I do remember when I went to kindergarten, things started to change, and it was. I didn't really understand why until I became an adult. And I don't want to say that the children were treating me different because I was Black, but as an adult, I really have no reason but to think that. No other reason but to think that. And it's unfortunate. So, I mean, our children learn what it is they learn from their parents because we don't come out, you know, racist. And we may be curious why someone looks different than we do, but we don't treat them badly as children.

Arrye Rosser [00:10:29] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:10:29] So I'm just looking back when I got older, I was like, why did that. Those kids treat me that way? I was only black one in the, in the kindergarten class, so I'm thinking that could be it. So without really knowing, that's- I can speculate.

Arrye Rosser [00:10:41] Yeah, I know it's gonna make you paranoid all the time. Like, I mean, it could.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:10:46] It makes me more sad than it does paranoid.

Arrye Rosser [00:10:49] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:10:49] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:10:50] That's good. Do you. This is a side question, but does your family's from Tulsa? You must be caught up in the anniversary of the Tulsa massacre. Is that your family? Does your family go back into that time period? Are you survivors?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:11:06] Well, yeah. Oh, my family is from there, and. Oh, there's someone walking. Is she coming to the door or just passing through? Sorry.

Arrye Rosser [00:11:16] It's okay.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:11:17] So, yes, my family was there when that happened. My grandmother passed away at 103 in 2016. Yeah. So none of my family that I know of lived in the historic Greenwood District where, you know, that atrocity took place. But still, to be in that city, that evoked fear among everyone because stuff was happening actually all over the country when that took place. You know, you had uprisings everywhere. You know, black people were angry, Black people were scared. But then white people were also scared and also felt empowered to be able to do that all around the country. So to the point that I was trying to make was, I think that the white people in other cities were hoping that the Black people in those communities didn't rise up out of anger for what happened. So there was just this combat all over the country. It's really, really sad. We actually went back to Tulsa to, you know, just take part in all the- the commemorative activities. And President Biden came down and spoke, and there were, you know, a lot of historic landmarks that were being acknowledged and not launched. What's the word I'm trying to look think of?

Arrye Rosser [00:12:44] Were they, like, getting national historic status or something like that?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:12:48] Yes, that's kind of what happens. Yes.

Arrye Rosser [00:12:51] Yeah. And there's definitely, in the Park Service, with the National Register of Historic Places, sort of efforts to make sure stories that have been underrepresented in the past get acknowledged.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:13:06] Right, exactly, exactly.

Erich Schnack [00:13:08] They're working on a museum down there, right?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:13:12] It opened.

Erich Schnack [00:13:13] Oh, it opened.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:13:14] That was the one. That was the spit. Well, I don't know if it's open to the public, but that was the. Like, the public announcement that this is what it's going to be.

Arrye Rosser [00:13:21] Oh, God.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:13:21] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:13:22] Like the groundbreaking or something?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:13:23] Yes, that's the word I was trying to think of earlier. Thank you. Not launch. Groundbreaking. Yes.

Arrye Rosser [00:13:30] That's cool. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting. It's gotta be totally gripping.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:13:36] It's deep. Yeah, it's really deep. And there was just such a heavy energy when I was there, you know, but it was also, you know, people coming together to remember how things can be. You know, not so much the fact that it was taken in a ridiculously brutal way, but the fact that when people come together, they can be strong and productive and have thriving communities. So just knowing that is really, really inspiring.

Arrye Rosser [00:14:09] Yeah. Yeah, I can see how that.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:14:13] In spite of all of the setbacks and barriers.

Arrye Rosser [00:14:15] I mean, you sort of hear a lot. A lot about Harlems in the Renaissance period or something. You don't have these other narratives sometimes sexually, in Midwestern communities. All right, let's switch on to nature. You talked a little bit about it, but just talk a little bit more about your relationship with nature when you're, like, a little kid. Like, we're real interested in just black experiences of nature, and especially people as adults who feel connected to nature. Like what the origin of it is.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:14:50] Yeah, I think that half of it is just natural. You know, it's more spiritual than anything. You know, people are brought into this world for whatever reason we're brought here. And some people have like an innate connection. Like it's. It's almost instinctive to understand that we are a part of nature, you know. And I think for me, my connection started out as a spiritual connection. You know, don't step on that bug, don't kill it, you know, that kind of thing. Like it's a living organism, don't do it. And my father always thought that I was different. You know, I would go stand outside barefoot and just walk through the grass. But come to find out there's actually healing qualities and it helps boost your immune system. Like scientifically, there are ions that enter our body and help us to heal, keep ourselves healthy. But you don't know that as a child it feels like the right thing to do, so you do it. So as a child, I think it was natural. Most of it was natural. And then when we got a little bit older, we would still come back every summer and stay with our grandparents and- And in Sand Springs, there are a couple of small Black communities in Sand Springs. And I was talking to my dad about this the other day. I didn't know that Sand Springs was actually a really big, fairly well-to-do suburb. All I knew was the Black community where my grandmother lived. You know, people are low income, I don't want to say poor, but, you know, not doing too, too well. And that's really all I knew as a child when we would visit my grandmother and stay with her for the summer. So we would also have vacant lots where the houses weren't close together. They were kind of spread out. So to me, that was like someone who's 10, you're short, you're just playing outside. Those vacant lots could be overgrown, but to me they were fields. And that's how we looked at it. So the grass was, you know, almost as tall as I was. And we would catch grasshoppers and we would hear the cicadas and it was, it was beautiful. Like, I loved it. Tons of lightning bugs and just gorgeous. So we'd play outside all day, every day- 

Arrye Rosser [00:17:16] Where did you play?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:17:17] So that's when it started. I don't know. Tag. We would, you know, dig in the dirt and find bugs and climbed trees. I don't know that there were specific games, but it was just fun being outside.

Arrye Rosser [00:17:31] You roamed? I did that too. I don't know, ran on the creek or whatever.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:17:38] I'm sure we played games because you can only run around and do nothing for so long, but I can't recall the specific games. I just know we would be outside for hours on end.

Arrye Rosser [00:17:48] Sounds like you were exploring is what you were. Yeah. Or roaming your territory. Were there any special outdoor activities that you do as a family? Like, do you have family memories around? Not necessarily even nature, but just outdoors. 

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:18:05] Yeah. So, I mean, there were always the cookouts, you know, the big barbecues. You bring food, there's music, people having a good time either in somebody's backyard or at, like, a public park where there were benches and picnic tables and shelters. We would always do stuff like that. And there would be maybe a basketball court and volleyball, sand volleyball nets, things like that. Water balloon fights, water guns, anything with water. You know, set up the pool outside for the kids. You all remember the slip and slide? I don't know if you are. You remember that area? Okay. Okay.

Arrye Rosser [00:18:43] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:18:44] Yeah. So the slip and slide was a really big thing. You can just do that forever and make a day of it. [crosstalk] Yeah. Don't hit a dry spot. Right, Exactly. So water was a big thing because it gets really hot in Tulsa. It's humid. It's extremely humid in Tulsa.

Arrye Rosser [00:19:06] Were there activities that interested you but that weren't accessible to you for whatever reason? Like, were you.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:19:14] Not that I'm aware of. Because, like I said, I think my parents did everything they could to make sure we had access to whatever we wanted to do. We had bikes, you know, skateboards, roller skates. So there were things for us to do outside, even if we were just in. Just playing around the neighborhood where we lived. My brothers were involved in tons of different kinds of sports. Soccer, football, hockey, anything you can think of. My dad had them in it, and he was coaching half of the teams.

Arrye Rosser [00:19:50] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:19:51] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:19:51] That's a lot of time outside.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:19:54] Exactly.

Arrye Rosser [00:19:56] Is there- Do you, looking back on it, what childhood experiences sort of have led you to your current work as an environmental leader? Like, are there things that are crystallized in your mind? It's- What is how you tell yourself is your path to the present or when you talk to young people?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:20:15] I think the one thing that I always bring up is just the tall grass. So, like I was saying, they may have been vacant lots in the neighborhood, but the houses were so far spread out that, to me, it looked like a field, and it was just open space to play and love nature.

Arrye Rosser [00:20:34] Do you feel like, like, the other kids that you were playing with had that same. Like, it was just the way all the kids in the neighborhood were. Or were you different that you like that? Because I asked that because I spent a lot of time on my grandmother's, you know, rural Maryland and was large African American communities. And I know sometimes, like the tall grass, there was this thing of, like, it's got snakes in it and people did not want to go on tall grass because of snakes. Yeah, it was all about that.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:21:08] But we weren't scared.

Arrye Rosser [00:21:10] Yeah. Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:21:11] I mean, kids at least.

Arrye Rosser [00:21:13] Yeah. Maybe it's not as venomous snakes. I mean, they're in Maryland too. There was.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:21:17] Right, right.

Arrye Rosser [00:21:17] I was always- I was scared of snakes too.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:21:20] So I think our family would have told this if there were, like, dangerous snakes to look out for.

Arrye Rosser [00:21:25] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:21:25] But most of them were garters, you know, little ones that don't. They're more afraid of you than you have to be of them. So there, as soon as you see them, they're trying to slither away the opposite direction and we're chasing them. So no, I mean, no big animals that we had to be concerned about. If we lived in, like, South Dakota, you know, in the woods or something, then, you know, you want to look out for wolves or bear.

Arrye Rosser [00:21:55] Exactly.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:21:56] But no, nothing like that in Tulsa that I've ever seen or heard about.

Arrye Rosser [00:22:00] How about- Did you have, like, camps that you went away to or school trip experiences?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:22:06] Oh, yeah. So let's see. When I moved from Tulsa, I don't recall going on anything when I was there, but definitely when I came to Cleveland, we middle school, we did things like Washington, D.C., Toronto, as a school trip. And that was really before you had to show a passport to get into Canada. I played on a volleyball team. I would go to summer camp. I had been to summer camp that my parents sent us to. That was awesome. I loved summer camp. Like, even after, like a rain, it. The smell of, like, if you're in a highly vegetated area, it smells like. It reminds me of camp.I love that smell. So having to get up early, first thing, going to breakfast, outdoor activities, you know, horseback riding, just playing games outdoors. The camps that I went to weren't super fancy, but there were opportunities and we would go like, canoeing or to an animal farm and milk the cows and things like that. So that was really. Those experiences didn't happen, like, as frequently as, you know, the- As they happen now that we're taking children out to experience it. But I think it was enough for me to start building an appreciation for it.

Arrye Rosser [00:23:30] Do you remember who sponsored the camp? Like, was it church camp or was it Scouts or the Y or just some random camp that. That's what they were.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:23:43] Yeah, A couple of the camps were church camps, so not sure of what church, but more like Christian camps. So we grew up as Pentecostal and apostolic, so that was really, really big in our lives. Spirituality, Christianity. So we did go to camps. I wouldn't say like nature camp specifically, you know, like through the YMCA or anything like that, or the Scouts, but there were definitely aspects of nature incorporated into it. You know, you're staying in the big cabin where there's just beds and you're showering outside, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:24:25] Did you have sometimes some themes come up around, like swimming and access to swimming for African Americans. And also the theme of gardening. I didn't know if those played any role in your life.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:24:38] Oh, yeah, yeah. So my grandmothers, you know, both of them had gardens out back. And I also remember my mom's mom doing, washing clothes and then hanging them on the line outside, you know, and her reasoning was, when you're. I think part of. When you're living under certain financial restrictions, you kind of have to make it work. So, whereas today it's looked at as being environmentally conscious by, you know, not using so much electricity or not running, putting dryer sheets, you know, those single. Those items that you use once and then throw away, not adding to the landfill. Now it's looked at as being sustainable when there are some people in the world or in our communities that have to live that way. So are they looked at as being sustainable too? Or is it just their lifestyle?

Arrye Rosser [00:25:35] Yeah. Or just. It's just normal.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:25:38] Right.

Arrye Rosser [00:25:38] Because people choose to do it and that's what they do.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:25:41] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:25:42] I mean, I remember not my parents, but my uncle did clothes on the line. Mm. My grandmother might have, too. I don't know.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:25:49] Yeah. And the clothes smelled amazing. And.

Arrye Rosser [00:25:51] No. But. Yeah, nobody was sort of, like, going freaky about it. It was like, yeah, I don't know, it's free.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:25:59] It may take, you know, a little bit more time. And you're concerned for, like, the weather if there's a rain or something. But, I mean, you just wash your clothes, so you just leave them out there and just let them dry once the rain stops.

Arrye Rosser [00:26:10] I know it might be a rural mentality a little bit, too. You got plenty of space and nobody's looking at your yes clothes and your

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:26:17] yes, it's sunny, whatever. Very true. Very true. Did I answer your question?

Arrye Rosser [00:26:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Were there any experiences or people who discouraged you from your experiences with nature, either like in the long ago time or in the present?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:26:38] Let's see. I don't know if I would say discourage. I just know that my parents are the old school American dream. Go to college, get a good job and buy good job. You know, either you're an executive or you're working out of an office, or you're a doctor or a lawyer kind of thing. They didn't push that on us too hard, but they encouraged it. And my father, like I said, he always looked at me as different. So I think he knew that regardless of what they told me to do, I was gonna do it my way anyway, so. And I appreciate that. You know, we can only tell our children to do so much, but then it does come a time, a point in time in their life for them where they're going to make their own decisions. And all you can do is hope that they are doing what's best for themselves and the world. So I invite my parents to all the events that we have and the things that we're doing. There's been some commemoration speeches I've given at high school commencements. And I think them seeing me doing what I truly, truly love and the community that I'm within is acknowledging of that. And not just acknowledging, but uplifting. They're proud. Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:27:58] Do you have that little part of you that thinks, oh, you should have been a doctor to me, you know, not you, but like the parents were sort of like, ah, she could have been this. Sometimes I feel like that too. I'm kind of saying.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:28:13] I will say, like I was really, really good. Well, I am really good at drawing. So there was a time in my life where I thought I was going to be doing something along those lines with, with art. And you know, my mom being that, oh no, you have to get a job that's gonna pay really well. What are you gonna do with art if you study art in school? You know, she asked me that. And you think about those things and I know she was looking out for my best interest. But it's also following your spirit and doing what makes you happy. You don't have to be rich to be happy. So I was trying to force myself to be like an art curator or an art dealer. You know, after you see these fancy, these movies where, you know someone has stolen an expensive piece of art and you know, art dealers can make good money if they make it to that level and are working with the high end pieces of art, you know, the Michelangelos, the other artists you know, that I should know. But I didn't go that direction. I went the direction that my spirit told me to go. And that's doing something with nature.

Arrye Rosser [00:29:17] Yeah. How has your relationship with nature changed over time? You sort of talked a lot about sort of that childhood wonder and just that exploration spirit which is natural in children. But now, you know, kind of looking at your trajectory now.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:29:33] I will say it's, it's bittersweet because me having this connection with the Earth, you know, and I'm sure other people have it too, but I can only speak for me, so I don't want to take it from anybody else, but I feel like my connection with the Earth makes me dislike the way our society is operating right now. And I don't just mean in like a sustainability context or over utilization or exploitation of resources. I mean in the sense that we're, we're so industrialized that when we build a building or, you know, create a community of homes, that we are destroying so much nature to do that. You know, so much green space and like natural growth and vegetation and even knocking off the natural operation of an ecosystem. And then we wonder why climate change exists. And taking it even a step further, you know, the kinds of food that we're eating on a regular basis, it makes me uncomfortable shopping in a grocery store because I don't feel that that's natural. You know, like everything's packaged and has to be processed and have additives and preservatives in it to have a longer shelf life. And we're wasting all this, this plastic and we're using the industries that are polluting and all this toxic waste to make sure we have all the conveniences in life that we have. And yes, I benefit from it, but internally I struggle with it because I know, like, if we were building our own home or if we were growing our own food, it. Life would be harder, but I wouldn't have to make time to go to the gym because I, you know, we would be doing that physical, that manual labor on a regular basis.

Arrye Rosser [00:31:28] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:31:28] So it's that going back to basics or, you know, wanting to live in a civilization that's just a little bit simpler for me. Yeah, that's where I struggle.

Arrye Rosser [00:31:40] Do you ever have that, like, if you could ignore the history of African Americans having horrible experiences, but just go back in time, do you kind of wish you- you were in another time? You know what I mean? Or is it more like bringing some of those values into a present time?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:31:59] It's a little bit of both Because I. I don't know that I would want to live through slavery.

Arrye Rosser [00:32:05] Yeah. Or through, you know, but I'm just sort of thinking of the log cab. Like, could you imagine the Little House on the Prairie kind of a life? You know what I mean?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:32:15] Absolutely.

Arrye Rosser [00:32:15] Like homesteader life.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:32:17] Definitely could.

Arrye Rosser [00:32:17] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:32:18] I definitely. My husband and I talk about that all the time. You know, just selling everything and moving to an island and just living that simple life, you know, selling surfboards or something.

Arrye Rosser [00:32:28] Yeah. Well, you can certainly do it in other countries.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:32:31] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:32:31] There's parts of the United States people are getting off the grid.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:32:34] Very true, Very true. Within, you know, our family is here, so how would we. I think that our society is set up in a way that makes us dependent and makes it harder for us to combat it and even come together to make our own communities. So, I mean, that's why I say bittersweet. But at the same time, we have these public lands that, you know, anybody can access and recreate on. So that's great. You know, I love that. And another thing that really, you know, tears my heart when I think about it is that these were lands that people who were already in this country were living on. So there had to be things done to those individuals to. To make. To take the land from them, to make it accessible to everyone. So we enjoy it. Yes. That's the sweet part. The bitterness is the history of it.

Arrye Rosser [00:33:25] Yeah. And it happened in multiple periods of time, too, because the current residents who lost their homes when the park was established have a lot of bitterness. Some of them. I've been thinking about that a lot. Well, in oral histories, certainly here we've been trying to explore that and another set of those conversations. But I've been thinking a lot about how do we recognize that as we approach our future 50th. Like, how do we have the conversations about acknowledgement and like, what would that even. What would that look like for us to acknowledge it?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:34:05] I think it's acknowledging what happened in the past. I think that it's really difficult for, you know, the higher up that you go in the hierarchy of the country, it's difficult to acknowledge what has really been done to first nations first peoples, to. And even in the more recent past, you know, communities that were destroyed. I was reading an article that just broke my heart a week ago or so that a lot of the lakes, the man made lakes, were communities of color that were where people were pushed out of the area and those cities were flooded, and now they're the lakes that. I mean, I guess you wouldn't know that unless you went to the bottom of the lake where you could still see some of the buildings and memories that there was an existence. But how would we know that unless that information is out there? And I'm sure that's not something that people want to broadcast.

Arrye Rosser [00:35:01] Yeah, I mean, I feel like we as an agency have to have the security in ourselves to talk about it like that. Sometimes people think, well, if we didn't bring it up, then people look bad on us or whatever. Or they- I don't know. It's- I think it's just cowardice is what it amounts to, and- Or it's raw. And you- Maybe people feel like, oh, it just brings up trouble and bad feelings. But I kind of feel like if you don't talk about it, you're never getting past it.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:35:36] Exactly.

Arrye Rosser [00:35:36] And that's it. You even have to get past it. You just. You never. People, you're always causing pain.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:35:44] Well, nobody wants to be looked at as the bad guy, and I get that. But the fact of the matter is that you did it. It happened. Own it. What are you gonna do now?

Arrye Rosser [00:35:54] Exactly. And, you know, or there was sacrifices. I kind of feel like, you know, the people who. It was a different situation with American Indians, but the people who sold their land to create the park, you know, they made. That was a sacrifice for their country. We should honor that sacrifice. You know that.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:36:13] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:36:13] You know, whether the circumstances were good or not good or whatever. And, you know, it's. Some kind of thinking about the issues with American Indians is so difficult because a lot of times, too, with that same with African American populations, they don't always know where they came from. They were dispersed. I mean, some people came left as a group and went somewhere as a group and stayed with their identity, but some people just got scattered as refugees. And. Yeah, you know, you lose the. You know, maybe, you know, your ethnicity, but you don't know where really you came from.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:36:56] Right, right. And I think that can weigh heavy when you. That's part of identity, you know, and if you don't have that. That solid home base to help, you say, well, I am this individual. I mean, we talk about this. If you know anything about psychology, you know, children, teenagers, they're developing their identity, and that's the most- That- That timeframe in their life when they're discovering who they are is so- is so tender, and it could force someone to go one direction or another, you know, good or bad. So it's important to have an identity and part of that is knowing where you come from.

Arrye Rosser [00:37:37] Yeah. And if you're insecure in your identity, you can do a lot of damage to other people.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:37:40] And yourself.

Arrye Rosser [00:37:43] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, placemaking, I think is probably really important to you. It's real important to me and I think a lot about how in these areas that have been damaged, this is certainly like a damaged landscape here in the national park for a variety of reasons. Not because people were evil, but because of the way it was. And we're healing that landscape and it's just thinking about like, how does that help heal identity for people to. To feel like there's places that they can say they're from that they're real proud of.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:38:20] Right.

Arrye Rosser [00:38:20] And if we are doing it here, how are- What other communities should we be helping to if we have the ability to do that?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:38:29] I agree. Now, are you speaking nationally, like National Park Service in general?

Arrye Rosser [00:38:33] No, I'm speaking about here. I'm very Cuyahoga-focused.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:38:36] Okay. Just making sure.

Arrye Rosser [00:38:38] No, I mean, I don't know. I think a lot of parks have a very. An old fashioned way of looking at parks. It's still very out there. Is there was this pristine place and we put a little boundary around it and we kept our little. We protected the island and we don't. I think in this park we have never really had that. But we're also not bound by a lot of expectations of what we were. I think that's actually been a little liberating. So we see a more fluid boundary, I think.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:39:09] Gotcha.

Arrye Rosser [00:39:10] But maybe not as much as I think we've been kind of bound by the boundaries. And we're starting to really see that our boundaries are more accurate in Cleveland and that we- The park doesn't exist if you don't understand the cities on either end of us, it doesn't make any sense of our history.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:39:28] That makes sense.

Arrye Rosser [00:39:32] Everything about us has to do with that. We're between Akron and Cleveland and the geography of the space or this little through way.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:39:41] Yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate that the staff here, you have programming that doesn't require everyone to come here to you, but you go outside of the park and say, hey, this is what we do. Because there are a ton of people who've never been to the national park and maybe they don't know that national parks aren't just around the corner from everybody in the country. Like we have one right here. I know it's not too far from downtown Cleveland.

Arrye Rosser [00:40:07] Well, I think the mind blowing thing to me though is you start thinking, even if it's not our boundary. It's our area of significance. It is Akron in Cleveland, too. So we. Instead of like, wow, you crossed the invisible line. Exactly. And it's like, no, really, like Cleveland history that relates on certain themes is our history. Like, we should be the ones who lift up some of these stories and tell them and create context. I think that held us up a lot. It's like, if it didn't happen in Cuyahoga Valley. Well, there are these themes that run through us. We have a canal, railroad history. There's all the river history. [00:40:49] Everything along those topic lines links us into the cities, and so that makes it our business.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:40:57] I agree.

Arrye Rosser [00:40:58] You know, it's kind of owning it, but it- it's maybe. Yeah, it's a little bit of a [kaboom sound, to emphasize mind blowing].

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:41:07] You know, it's daunting when you think about it in the grand scheme of things. It's. It can be very overwhelming because there's so much to it, so many aspects, the history, the people. And even though it's an organization and a system, organizations and systems are still run by individuals, people. And those people contribute to the energy of the organization or the system. So trying to get everyone on the same page can be difficult. But also, I think if the culture of the organization or the system is healthy, then you have a better chance of pulling more people in. Does that make sense?

Arrye Rosser [00:41:45] No, totally.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:41:46] Okay. I am kind of shooting from the hip there.

Arrye Rosser [00:41:48] I completely. I completely, completely agree. Yeah. Because it's some ways, like we're part of this bigger culture in the National Park Service, but many ways, we're a group of people doing work. And, you know, how that's led or how we act within that context is kind of- 

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:42:12] Yes. Carries a lot of weight.

Arrye Rosser [00:42:13] Carries a lot of weight. Well, let me ask a little bit about what are your favorite activities to do now? How do you connect to nature?

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:42:20] Oh, there's so many. I love water, so. I know, right?

Arrye Rosser [00:42:28] I'm getting thirsty, too.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:42:29] My spirit felt that question. So I would probably have to say pretty much anything on the water. Kayaking. I've always loved swimming, and it's interesting, my relationship with water because even though I can swim, I'm somewhat afraid of it just because I respect it so much. And, you know, there are even the best of swimmers can find themselves in unfortunate situations where if you're, you know, caught by a current, you can drown.

Arrye Rosser [00:43:01] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:43:01] You know, we've seen water destroy cities, you know, and knock over huge, strong buildings. It- God forbid, you know, that I hate seeing that happen to people. And society's communities, but it happens. So I just have so much respect for water. We need it to survive. You know, water is life. It can destroy, it can create. And for there to be. Just going back to the question that you were mentioning earlier, that disconnect where, you know, there's a general understanding that a lot of people of color don't know how to swim. And just connecting that back to the history of the country where black people were excluded from being able to go to swimming pools, you know, or the popular water hole. So. And- And also, I think if we're really taking it back even further, how water has been used against people, you know, dirty drinking water in communities, not really caring that this community has clean drinking water. I mean, we saw it recently in Flint, Michigan, jumping off the slave ship and saying, hey, I would rather die than have you tell me how to live my life. You know, we've seen. Well, have heard accounts of that. So I think a relationship with water is very interesting for us individually, but for me personally, it's- I love it, but I have, like, this. This reverence for it that forces me to respect it in such a way that I know I'm not. I've swam in the Pacific, I've swam in the Atlantic, but it's not something I do regularly, even Lake Erie.

Arrye Rosser [00:44:54] It's. I, like. I always feel like people in this area are water junkies in ways that people that aren't from this area find really shocking, because we're not, like, on the coast. We're on the coast that they don't understand. But do you feel like that goes back to, like, being in Tulsa or you were in Providence, toots on the water? Or do you think that maybe it's like a Great Lakes thing, you know, where we're like, the identity of the Great Lakes. If you could ignore the Great Lakes as just sort of this thing that ships moved on or had industrial purposes, or you could look at them as the main identity of where we live.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:45:36] That's one of the things that keeps my family here, is the fact that we're near one of the largest sources of fresh water in the world. And while other city or other states are dealing with drought, you know, countries are dealing with drought, we're. I mean, I was telling people this a decade ago. Like, we're gonna see an influx in population. And if not in Cleveland or Ohio, around the Great Lakes, you know, and it's happening. So, you know, shipping water to other states from the Great Lakes, you know, how do we make sure we are preserving and treating that like it's. It's a gem, it's a jewel. How are we making sure we're taking care of our natural resources? And I struggle with that word, resources too, you know, because resources makes it feel like we're entitled to it. Yeah, yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:46:29] Although in some- I know I struggle with it too, because it's a very- In our business kind of a thing. Resource management. It's a power kind of a thing.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:46:39] Right, exactly, exactly. When in all reality we need it, you know, we should consider it a gift. You know, it's not something that we can just have access to and use it however we please, whenever we please.

Erich Schnack [00:46:52] Yeah. Like it implies we have dominion over these things, when in reality it really has dominion over us.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:46:59] Yes.

Erich Schnack [00:47:00] To breathe, to drink water.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:47:01] We should look at it that way, too. Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:47:06] Well, you sort of answered this already, but I'll ask get again. Just if you have anything to add of just what you think draws you to nature. Okay.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:47:14] I can go a little deeper into it. So I am. I've always been enamored with civilizations that look at trees as spiritual beings because they are, you know, we get so much from them and they serve. I mean, just imagine the world without trees. I think we'd have difficulty breathing, you know, I mean, there's other vegetation that, you know, we can pull oxygen from, but not like we can trees. So another thing, just respect for trees and loving the idea that we need to increase canopy because that happened. I mean, trees come down when buildings come up, you know, so how can we create that balance? How can we make sure we are planting more and maintaining them than we're cutting down on a regular basis? So really considering how, like, what that really, really looks like. And I know part of the issue is maintenance and, you know, planting native so that we are protecting, respecting the natural ecosystem that we live within. And, you know, things grow in certain places for a reason. You know, they do better in certain environments. So making sure we're sticking with native as best as possible. So trees and water, really, really big, big things to me. Big things to our existence as a whole. And just to make sure, I'm getting back to your question. My relationship with nature has changed in the sense that I am trying to be more aware of how I live my life. You know, when it comes to minimizing how much. How much waste our family is putting out there, doing the. Encouraging other people to also just be conscious of how they're living, composting all of the things from, you know, back in the day that we saw our grandparents doing that are now coined terms. And I say this all the time. My husband's like, oh, you have the same story. I say, well, I tell it because it's important. So like composting, people were doing that well before was called that. Upcycling, you know, the hand me downs from the older siblings to the younger siblings and instead of just throwing out clothes that are perfectly good or using them as rags for something else. So just trying to be really, really conscious. And as an adult, I'm the one that's able to buy my own things, my own supplies, my own household items, and trying to encourage our children to be less wasteful because as a child, you don't really think about your impact, your own individual impact, unless someone is telling you or unless you're raised in the environment that promotes that lifestyle. So sharing that with our children as an adult, since, you know, I have kids now, sharing that with our children, trying to be more conscious and not really beat myself up so much about it because it's hard. We live in a society of convenience, you know.

Arrye Rosser [00:50:36] It is really hard.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:50:38] It's hard. It's not set up for us.

Arrye Rosser [00:50:40] I struggle with the same thing too. And. But another way, if you're, if you focus so much on pure, being pure, it's harder for other people to relate to you too, because you're sort of judgy about it. So.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:50:54] Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:50:56] You know, you want to, you want to move the needle.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:51:01] So not making someone feel guilty about using a straw when we're out, when we're dining out, you know, like, I'll pull out my little, my metal one.

Arrye Rosser [00:51:08] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:51:09] And they're like, oh. And not say anything, but they'll see it.

Arrye Rosser [00:51:11] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:51:12] And they're like, oh, why do you do that? That's an opportunity to share that information. So I think that's really important as an adult. More accountability, more awareness, sharing the information that I have and just trying to do what I can with what I'm given.

Arrye Rosser [00:51:29] I'm curious about, like, been thinking a lot about, like, I'm a little obsessed with trees and water too. I think we're like sisters on this front. But the like, I've heard that sometimes from like soil and water conservation folks that they say you can't give away trees in the inner city. People don't want to plant them. They've got a labor cost to them. But I also think there's an issue about the, like, the story, the narratives that we tell about trees. And you think about lynching, these sort of being scared in the woods. And this sort of. I'm mindful of it, too, when we emphasize underground railroad stories, which isn't a bad thing to emphasize. But if that's all you're talking about, that's adding to the problem. So I wondered about, like, the work that you're doing, if you get feedback from the communities that you serve, that sort of. You're rubbing up against those different narratives and sort of changing how people view trees and have cultural meaning to your communities, that you're, like, redefining it.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:52:47] Well, we have to have those cultural, historic conversations. We do, because a lot of what we. What I've seen what we found. And, you know, there's studies back in this that a lot of the fears that people have stem either from an experience and early on in life or from a psychological energy that's passed down from generation to generation. So even though, you know, someone may be afraid of the woods and you ask them why, they may not have an exact response, you know, a definitive answer for that. But if you look back at, you know, if you talk to the mother or, you know, the parent, if you talk to the grandparent, if you talk to the great grandparent, they're the ones that have encouraged their children not to play in the woods. They may not have ever said, why don't go there. You may never come out. You know, that. That's all you know, and that fear is genetic. I mean, when we think about. When I say genetic, I mean, just passed down from family to family member and psychologically, that. That trauma, that anxiety doesn't have to be said. You see it in the way that your family is acting when they're in that situation. So trying to get to the. Addressing what the root of the cause is. So we talk about that with our children, with our program participants, and, you know, ask those questions. When we see a child freaking out, we don't- We never force anybody to do anything. We will pull them aside, okay, let's go do something else. Give them a chance to, you know, calm down, and then we'll have a conversation with the larger group. You know, if that one person wants to talk and we're asking questions and they start sharing with us, that's cool. And- But when we talk about it as a group, we never pinpoint one person and say, well, Amy didn't want to go out there. Maybe you can share with us, Amy, you know, you don't want to do that. That's even More traumatizing. But like, talking about the cultural history as a group and even bringing in the parents and the grandparents is really, really important. So we make sure we engage the community, we engage family members and friends. Because, like I said, that child may not know why their parents don't want them to go into the woods. But we also know that, like you were mentioning, when you watch scary movies, scary things happen in the woods. So if someone is not used to being in nature, the only thing they have to relate to is going to the woods is Michael Myers or Texas Chainsaw Massacre, you know, like, I don't want to be murdered out there. And then you have the energy of being afraid of, you know, runaway slaves being, being lynched. Like you were saying someone, or even not even a runaway slave. Just in recent history, you know, you had lynchings all across America in the '50s, '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s. And think recently. So an uprising, these race wars you were starting to see the last couple years, you know, Black people being hung from trees or even the symbolism or the threat. So you're- You're tapping into that trauma again, even it may not happen to you. But if someone says, I'll hang you from a tree, you're like, wait a second. Okay, let me go this direction instead. So it's that having those open conversations to really get to the root cause. And once we discuss that, you know, those children sometimes look at us like, I don't have that problem. Okay, well, now you know why someone else might, you know, and if there is a fear, then maybe you can talk about it with your parents and help them address their fear. So including the family is a really, really big aspect of what we do, the work that we do so that we can go back to, you know, getting past all of that, those atrocities that took place, taking it further when civilizations and communities existed with nature. And then we talk about, look, this is. We were agriculturalist. You know, we were outdoor people. We lived on the land, and everything that we did was in harmony with the earth. So putting that back, you know, putting that information out there helps put things into perspective. Like, you don't have to be afraid. You know, we're working with awesome National Park Service, like, people like you, all that are encouraging this and will treat you kindly and, you know, want everyone to experience all the positivities of nature. So we try to provide a holistic way of looking at things. Yes, there are bad things, but sometimes those things need to be addressed in order to begin healing. So talking about the cultural history to as far back as you can think of and then, you know, incorporating civilizations that do look at trees for, you know, spiritual- spiritual guidance as trees, as spiritual entities themselves. So, I mean, even the Bible talks about the Tree of Life, the Tree of Knowledge, and so many other spiritual practices look at trees as those- The word I'm trying to think of, I don't know, just the main entity that I can't even think of what it is I'm trying to say. But trees are really important in a lot of spiritual and a lot of cultures spiritually.

Erich Schnack [00:58:41] You reminded me of a traditional Lenape story that I've read. And this was gathered from this area in a book that I read recently. And this story tells a story about a maple tree who was a caregiver to all of the forest. And one day a woodpecker could not find a home to stay in for a very cold winter. And the maple tree called out into the sky that you can come live within my bark. And that would have been a traditional Lenape story told around here.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:59:18] That's awesome. Yeah.

Erich Schnack [00:59:18] You know, I love that idea of the tree being a life giver and an opportunity to connect.

Whitnye Long-Jones [00:59:28] That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:59:31] I think there is a lot of rich opportunity of this kind of other cultural stories that would connect with a variety of different people that live here, whether it's their own culture or another one. I keep wondering if we should be planting, doing our plantings in communities in that culturally sensitive way as opposed to this, let's whack some trees in the ground. Like, should we be creating groves of trees that have meaning in some other way.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:00:04] Or planting for a purpose? You know, when we go to lower income communities, we'll always see where, what do you call those, not a shrine. Memorial where someone might have been murdered somewhere. And you'll see like the stuffed teddy bear, the balloons, the candles. Can we plant trees? Or someone was murdered or killed or, you know, taken instead of those items that, you know are just going to be put in the trash once they're done. And at least this way that that tree can stay for, you know, as long as it can stay. But it's something to go back to. You're- you're seeing growth, you're giving back to the earth, you're promoting environmental health within your community. How do we convey that information? Because shrines, you know, ancestor memorials are actually, they date back centuries and centuries and centuries. Many cultures do them, and that is one way to acknowledge someone's existence. So I get that. But that shrine, that memorial is temporary. So how can we put something that can be more substantive and serve multiple purposes and stay for a longer time?

Arrye Rosser [01:01:27] We have to. After the oral history, we should have a long conversation about this topic. It's really interesting. I actually, I grew up spending a lot of time in Greece because the work that my dad was doing as a Cyprus in particular, not so much in Greek, but Greek culture. And there's a tradition where people do, like, take little ribbons of fabric, not, I think more like rag kind of ribbons, and they tie it in trees as prayers. And so you have this trees that are just like covered in these prayer trees and they're just beautiful. I'd sort of forgotten that imagery, but I've seen that.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:02:04] Yeah, I've seen different scenarios along the same lines. You know, if you. Breast cancer awareness. I've seen pink ribbons in trees before and it's gorgeous.

Arrye Rosser [01:02:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's like changing how people view things and helping have positive or healing meanings to things as opposed to, well, you know, we had to do this because the nature people want us to do it.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:02:33] And that's kind of another form of healing. Yeah. And that's from the scientific side of things. You know, how can you make it a little bit more personal and more relatable?

Arrye Rosser [01:02:43] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:02:44] So if I were to go and say to someone, oh, we're going to plant some trees because it's going to help manage stormwater runoff or, you know, it's going to pull 48 tons of toxins from the air annually. They're looking at me like, what are you talking about? I don't care about that. Even if someone is suffering from poor air quality, the way that I said it is going to be lost, like, completely go over somebody's head who is disconnected from that scientific side, a way of looking at things. So, you know, it's reframing it. It's making sure that the reason, like, people feel like what they're involved in has a benefit, whether immediate or long term, and just making sure we're not wasting people's time. Because people do truly feel like when someone comes into their community, the only reason they're doing it is to check a box they got. They can get some grant funding to help some poor people. Great. Are we ever going to see you all again? Probably not. You know, so what's the point? So making deeper connections is a really, really big deal. And if you're only going to be there once, give the tools to the people and empower them to continue the process without you. Don't just say, hey, we're coming to do this and you all are chosen this time. You know, that's really shady, it's superficial and people know.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:04:13] So you're getting the money from this and what are we getting? You're getting our time and you're not even compensating us. So.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:20] Yeah, yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:04:21] It's being realistic about all that.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:26] Switching a little bit. I love this conversation. I could talk about it forever.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:04:29] I could.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:30] Yeah, but how about like, I'm thinking like in terms of like spaces. What are some of your favorite like, trails in the national park or in the Metroparks? And what do you like about like your favorite nature places to go?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:04:46] It's really strange that I never remember the names of the trails.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:52] It's okay.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:04:52] I just know like the parks that I like and you know, the, the memories that I have with girlfriends or family when we go, we went to some girlfriends of mine and I went to Mohican State Forest a couple years ago, stayed out there a weekend. That was super fun. We been to national park plenty of time. So I guess the ledges is. I hear people talk about that a lot. So even, you know, I said, okay, let me go check out the ledges. That is pretty cool. So I've been there. Oops. Been there a couple times. Where else in the national park? So I remember Happy Days Lodge was. I love the cabiny feel of that venue. That facility is beautiful. My husband and I go to. I mean this isn't a national park, but it's a national Allegheny State Forest, not national state Forest. And we try to make it there once a year to do some cold weather camping. I mean we've been to a ton of places, just can't. I can never recall them when, you know, on cue.

Arrye Rosser [01:06:12] Oh no, no, no, it's okay. I was just kind of curious about the imagery of it too. Like, of what resonated with you.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:06:18] Well, we did go to, to just this we when we went to Tulsa in late May, early June, we stopped at a couple national parks on the way there and on the way back we just made like a nine day road trip out of it. We went to the Indiana Dunes. That was gorgeous. And I'd never been to Lake Michigan and I did not know that the water looked like the ocean. I mean I've seen it in pictures, but. And it's gorgeous. Like it's really blue and clear. So that was nice. And the sand dunes, we climbed up those. That was a good workout. We'd been to. I've been to the Gateway Arch plenty of times with the family, but that's more the arch than, like, hiking green space. We went to Ouachita State Park, State Forest. That was beautiful. And what's the one with the really tall tower in Arkansas? I think it's Arkansas.

Arrye Rosser [01:07:17] It's an Arkansas post. I've never been to. I don't know Arkansas well, but no, it's not Arkansas.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:07:23] Hot Springs.

Arrye Rosser [01:07:24] Oh, Hot Springs.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:07:25] Yeah, we went there, and that was more touristy than anything. But seeing all the different types of national parks.

Arrye Rosser [01:07:32] It's those- those old resorts.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:07:34] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [01:07:35] They're kind of a thing too, aren't they.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:07:36] Though, with the bags? Yes, yes. Massage parlors, I think it was. For me, it was interesting seeing the different types of park, you know, Abe Lincoln's House, National Historic Site, George Washington Carver National Monument. So there's so many different types, which is one thing I appreciate about the National Park Service. Like, there's no one that's alike. No national park or historic site that I've seen so far. Yeah, I've only been to six or seven. But they're all. They've all been very, very different. I appreciate that.

Arrye Rosser [01:08:12] Well, let me ask you a bit about. Specifically about your career path. How would you describe your career?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:08:20] I'd say it's going in the direction that I'm very, very happy with. Life never turns out the way we expect it to. You know, even if we're doing what we had planned to do since we were five years old, there's still always going to be some tweaks here and there. But I'm very happy with the direction, the direction that it's going now. So I've always wanted to do community engagement, you know, working with a ton of different types of people. I've always wanted to be in a space that allows for healing, even if I'm not the healer. Like, we're coming together as a group and learning how to heal and address some of the traumatic experiences that we've been through either recently or, you know, the past of the country and anything in nature. And, you know, I think nature is very therapeutic. So when we're thinking about, I don't like pharmaceuticals, you know, I even visit the hospital and the doctor as little as possible. But, you know, there's instances you have to do your annual checkups and things like that. But if I don't have to go to the hospital, I'll find a natural way to address it. And I love that people call me and say, hey, Whitnye, you got any recommendations on this? I have a headache. Yeah, do a little acupressure right here and like, oh, cool. Or, you know, eat some wild lettuce. And you can recommend things like that. But I also make sure I send them a book. So everything's not just coming from me. I want someone to, you know, do something and then blame me that gave them an allergic reaction or something. But I do like the direction. I think that when you realize your mission and your power and your abilities, then things begin to fall into place. I really do believe in that, like, wholeheartedly. But it takes patience and a level of understanding, you know, instead of trying to force something because you think that you want to do this over here, but just sometimes just sitting and waiting and I think this is where nature comes in. You just go outside and go somewhere where it's quiet if you can, you know, because some people don't have that, you know, that the option to do that. But if you do have the option to just sit somewhere and be still and let the universe talk to you. And this is me. This is how I do things. You know, just. Just let the universe talk to you. Then things will come to you. You just have to be open to receiving them. So, yeah, I love the direction that my career is going. We're looking for Organic Connects to be our main source of income. Because right now my husband's working, I'm working. So then we run the business together, and we've been in a place to bring on, you know, one additional staff person, and we've contracted with, like, two or three people. So I think we're- we're going in the right direction. We just need it to be more consistent and a little bit more before we can quit our day jobs. But we're on that track.

Arrye Rosser [01:11:23] What inspired the name? I was curious about that.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:11:26] Yeah, so organic, you know, it's still just operating organically. So when it's just really interesting how we've built relationships with individuals, with communities, with organizations, a lot of times they come about very organically. Just being in the right place at the right time or talking to the right person and that individual introducing us to someone or something, and then an opportunity opening up for us to do something with that individual or organization that we just met, the timing just seems to work out that way. A lot of times that doesn't go to say that we're not pursuing things. You know, we don't just sit back and let things fall in our lap, because that's also not how the universe works. But you have to- That saying, God helps those who help themselves. Like, you just have to be- You have to pay attention to the signs and then know when to act on something. So things happen very organically. I do believe, like I was saying, minimizing, you know, my pharmaceutical intake pills and all that stuff and also trying to eat food that's, that hasn't been overly processed or, you know, have a bunch of the bad ingredients in it. So that's where organic comes from. Just that that overall lifestyle that we try our best to live by and connects is bring people together. You know, providing resources wherever we can, connecting programming to organizations and students that could benefit if they want to. So we don't force anything. We don't, you know, try to coerce anybody. I mean, it's the same word, but you know, we just try to do things in a very organic way and connecting everything together. So the cultural history, the science, the spirituality, you know, the personality. So bringing all of that together in one program, in one organization.

Arrye Rosser [01:13:37] Do you feel is youth your main focus? Do you see yourself as a youth serving organization or is that just what you happen to be doing now, but your vision is bigger?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:13:47] Well, I think everybody plays a part. Every age group plays a part in Organic Connects. So youth may be our target audience, but we understand the importance of intergenerational activity. So that's the family support and also the community support. So when we're working with youth or organizations, we're also going into that community to make sure. Well, not to make sure, but to do our best to support any positivity or, you know, like we were saying earlier, any resources that may be needed to make sure that we're operating in the best way that we can as a unit. So the youth is our target audience because we want to do what we can by instilling a love for nature. And well, like I said, that youth already have that love. It's really just building on what's already there and helping to guide a path, helping to support their journey. If someone wants to continue down the path of, you know, going into the field of whatever green industry they may be interested in helping to address those barriers. [01:15:04] Because sometimes people have. Have difficulty getting into that field or they may be receiving very little support because their parents don't understand why they want to do it. Well, we want you to be a doctor. Why do you want to plant? How are you going to make money planting trees? Like it's bigger than planting trees, you know, maybe they're going to be a conservationist or, you know, do, do- do biological research. You know, so it's, it's bigger than putting the whole package together so that we're supporting the youth on their journey from elementary to middle school to high school, even into college, even into their career. So partnering with organizations that offer internship opportunities and funneling students into that so they. And it's exposure. So they can say, okay, I tried this. Love it, or I hate it. But at least now you know. So that's part of it too.

Arrye Rosser [01:16:03] What kind of activities have you been doing with groups?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:16:06] Ooh, there's tons. So let's see. Recreation wise, we've done kayaking. We've done overnight camping. We are in the works of putting together opportunities for horseback riding and archery. But we've done, I mean, we play, we just play games outside. You know, kickball's a really big one that our young'uns. Like,

Arrye Rosser [01:16:35] Do you see the same kids over and over? Like, do you tend to have, like, is it a little more like a kind of a club? I'm more familiar with CU at the top and just that sense of like a continuity of folks. Or do you feel like you're sort of popping in and out of a lot of different, different organ communities because of the nature of how funding sometimes drives numbers?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:16:57] Sometimes, yeah. So it's really important. Continuity is really, really important for us. So if we're trying to support journeys, then we need to make sure we're maintaining relationships with the youth that we've, that we already have connections with. And if we're making connections with new youth, we stay in touch with them so that they can come to our events or so that they can pick and choose what it is they want to be at. So we try to work with the same youth as best as possible.

Arrye Rosser [01:17:25] What communities do you serve? Are you geographically? Kind of. Where are the kids coming from?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:17:31] So Greater Cleveland. A lot of our youth are when we go into the schools. So that's Cleveland CSMD. We've worked with George Washington Carver. We're building relationships with Rhodes Environmental School. Environmental School of Environmental Studies. We've worked with Washington park and Wade park and Kenneth Clement. I'm just naming some off the top of my head, Boys Leadership Academy. So a lot of what we do too is really just open to the public. So when we market, we post that information in very specific, you know, sometimes strategically, sometimes just social media kind of thing. And we'll contact organizations that we have relationships with and say, hey, we got this coming up. You know, let us know if you want some of your youth to participate. So some of them are one offs. And I think that just really depends on who comes in, when, and to what, what. But like I said, once we have them in, we do our best to maintain a connection with them. So Cleveland, various neighborhoods, Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights, Maple Heights, Bedford, Lorain, and I feel like I'm forgetting one, but that's the gist of it.

Arrye Rosser [01:18:56] Kind of up to sort of a lake northern.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:19:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [01:19:02] How did you get involved with the conservancy? I was curious about how that got started. Or was it more with the national park? And then you got involved with the conservancy through the park or just your experience with us here in the valley?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:19:15] When you say the conservancy.

Arrye Rosser [01:19:16] Oh, for Cuyahoga Valley National Park.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:19:18] Okay. Because I was on the board of the Soil and Water Conservation District. So I think that also happened very organically. And I honestly don't remember who I met first, so I think it was Jesus Sanchez. Yeah. So when I was at the Y, I was there from 2015 to 2017. He was introduced to me. We had started to develop a committee, a steering committee to help us, you know, guide our work and connect more to the community and identify youth that we could serve. So when we started reaching out to folks to say, hey, we're looking for individuals to be on our steering committee, someone suggested, I can't remember who suggested Jesus, but he was with Esperanza, Inc. At that time. Because, you know, again, working for an organization, you tend to fall into those situations where you're making an effort to connect with a specific group of people. So Esperanza, you know, serves a Latin community on the near west side, and he came on to the steering committee, and he wasn't there at Esperanza too much longer. I think he went to the conservancy after Esperanza. So that was, you know, a direct connection to the national park, which made even more sense because we were already operating a program that was, you know, put on by Michelle Obama and the Department of the Interior. So the whole idea was to bring individuals more to increase visitation among, you know, people of color at the national park. And I think that is how I really got to work more with the conservancy here.

Arrye Rosser [01:21:08] That's cool.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:21:08] And then it's just been uphill since then.

Arrye Rosser [01:21:09] So, yeah, we have a lot in, like, in terms of our mission, you know, I think we're trying to accomplish a lot of the same things.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:21:17] Oh, cool. At the Conservancy?

Arrye Rosser [01:21:20] Or the park. I think, you know, the Conservancy in some ways has been more nimble to pivot, but we have a lot of resources too. So, I mean, we work very closely, so they sometimes have a slightly different path, but most the time we're all headed in the same direction.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:21:39] And then I will say there have been. There's been a ton of effort lately to again, just connect by increasing visitation, broadening the diversity of individuals that are visiting the park. So I'd start to see Deb Yandala at a lot of the committee meetings that I was on, and she and I, you know, know, just started talking. Beautiful lady. And she's good at what she does. So she and I started talking and then we've just kept in touch over the years. So she'd reach out to me from time to time and I'd reach out to her. So that was just another way that we stayed connected to the Conservancy.

Arrye Rosser [01:22:20] I was curious too, like, I noticed you were on the steering committee for the AOC. I knew you were on the subcommittee with me, but I'm not in the other group. But how did you get involved, like in the river recovery story? How did that happen?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:22:37] So, again, just water. And Jenn Grieser knows that some really large focuses of Organic Connects is water and trees. So- 

Arrye Rosser [01:22:47] Did she recruit you? 

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:22:49] She did, yeah. Yeah. So working with the Metroparks, we've done a ton of programming there. And when you- Depending on the type of programming that you're doing, whoever you're talking to at the Metro Parks will connect it to that person. So we've done programming where we've had to- Well, I don't want to say had like it's a bad thing. Where we've interacted with Jenn plenty of times. So that relationship has also become stronger over the years. And I would just see her out all the time and she would see me at certain events and.

Arrye Rosser [01:23:22] Yeah, that's a lot of how life is, isn't it?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:23:24] Right?

Arrye Rosser [01:23:24] You keep showing up.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:23:25] Exactly. Exactly. One time she asked if I would be a presenter, if I would facilitate a table, a breakout session for the AOC's conference a few years ago. So I did that.

Arrye Rosser [01:23:41] Oh, yeah, I was at that. The one when we hosted it in Cleveland.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:23:44] No, this was at the Natatorium. Was that in.

Arrye Rosser [01:23:48] Oh, yeah, Akron. Yeah, that's very close to [crosstalk] Cuyahoga Falls. I live like 10 minutes away from that area.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:23:53] Oh, okay. Okay.

Arrye Rosser [01:23:54] So, yeah, I remember that one too.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:23:56] Okay, come back to me. Yes, yes, yes. So, I mean, I think ever since then, Jenn and I have been working more closely together. So when she. When I facilitated that discussion afterwards, she said, hey, you know what? There's some open seats in the advisory committee if you want to join it, so submit this application and we'll have to vote you in. And it-

Arrye Rosser [01:24:20] Yeah, yeah, that's really cool.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:24:22] Mm. Then it pays to know people.

Arrye Rosser [01:24:24] Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of an extended family, isn't it? I looked at the names. I'm like, I see. Right.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:24:35] So many people that, you know. It's a small knit community. You know, the environmental arena.

Arrye Rosser [01:24:40] In the water, people in particular. There you go.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:24:42] Yes, yes, yes.

Arrye Rosser [01:24:43] So, been a long slog.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:24:44] Agree.

Arrye Rosser [01:24:45] Do you have any, like, memorable stories about how nature, like, you know, you're basically in the business of. Of using nature as a tool, a transformative tool in people's lives. Do you have any kind of stories to illustrate that. That you've seen through your work?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:25:02] Yeah, I would say one thing that comes to mind immediately. So whenever we take our students and even family members, not just the youth out kayaking, a lot of them have never been before. So there's this fear of being so close to the water and this small little contraption that's only you. And if someone can't swim, they're like, I don't think I want to do that. You know, I don't feel comfortable. That's fine. If you don't feel comfortable, we won't force you. You know, okay, we'll be back. We'll see you later. Because we're going to. Here's what you can do in the meantime. But. And of course, someone won't just leave a child the riverbank by themselves. But if- And we also usually get people that want to try it to sign up.

Arrye Rosser [01:25:52] Yeah, yeah. Sometimes, too, if you stand in the water, you're like, we're not. It's not that deep. True.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:25:58] Yes, that's very true. That's not where you are. Absolutely. So I remember we went to the Lorain County Park, Metro Parks, and in the Vermilion River, you can't see the bottom. So, you know, some of the children were like, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. But we had a great team. I can't remember the name of the outfitter that we rented the boats from, but they came on the water with us because, you know, some of our students were like, we're not comfortable. We don't want to. It's okay. Okay. You don't have to. So, you know, we're given the whole training, and at the very last minute, the two students said brother and sister, and they said they didn't know how to swim, and they decided to go at the very last minute, which was great. And I think, like, once they got the hang of, you know, the paddle and five minutes into it, they're like, racing each other, you know, so obviously super comfortable at this point. And we're on the water for a good hour and a half. So we get back in, and my husband came. He pulled me aside after the program and said, hey, remember Marianne? He said he didn't want to do it. He was super, super scared. Like, he was actually shaking, nervous. And when he did it, he came out of the water and he said, that was really fun. Now I want to learn how to swim. So that's cool. So one thing we're talking about doing is finding a way, maybe going into a partnership with YMCA where we're- You know, we have a set group of individuals that are receiving swimming lessons at a discounted rate. And, you know, we'll apply for the grant funding because one thing we want to do is reduce those barriers so people don't have to pay for that. But if we can provide swimming lessons to people, then they will feel less afraid when opportunities like that come up. I mean, and it could save a life. You know, you never know when you're going to be in a situation where you need to have to swim. So why not prepare everyone as best we can?

Arrye Rosser [01:28:01] How is the work that you're doing in Organic Connects influenced people, like, in your family or your friends, like, I imagine not everybody's all started out like, oh, yeah, Whitnye, we're right there with you.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:28:15] They're not. I mean, it's. Don't get me wrong, I get great support when there are awards coming or public acknowledgments. You know, my brothers, my dad, my mom, they're like, oh, that's awesome. Good for you there. I have one brother who. He's an outdoorsman, but he's just like a very simple. You know, he has his guns, his knives, he likes to fish, he likes to hunt. But the science behind all of it, he could care less. He could care less. So when I'm talking to my brothers, because we do a weekly call every- My parents aren't together, so it's just my mom and my brothers on this weekly call once a week. Well, weekly is once a week, so we're on this call, and my brother, one of my brothers was asking me, he's like, hey, when I saw you got this award from city of Cleveland, that's awesome. [01:29:04] Can you talk about, like, what's sustainability? How are you a sustainability leader? What does that mean? So I'm talking to him and, you know, using some of that terminology that we don't use, because my brother understands, you know, he's the one I'm speaking to. He's a microbiologist. And I'm, you know, explaining to him all of this, but more along the public health line of things, not so much environmental science. And I'm explaining all of this to him and my other brother, who's just. He's the outdoors person. He just wants to. It's his therapy and sometimes recreation. Not so much educational. He's like, oh, man. He's like, what are y'all talking about? Like, I'm. I'm gonna hang up the phone. I'm like, don't go. You know, like, stay. So it's not that he wasn't proud for me. He just didn't care to hear all the details. And that's. We get that a lot from a lot of people. So I get it.

Arrye Rosser [01:29:58] Every family has got this whatever the subject is.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:30:02] Right, right, right. Like, it's too complicated. Know, I'm more simple than that. I don't care about all that. Can we talk about something else now? So you. We get that. That praise a lot. Family is super, super supportive. So I don't want to make it sound like they're not, but again, just taking into consideration, when you're trying to engage someone, you have to speak it in a language that they understand in order to get some feedback. Yeah, my family, too.

Arrye Rosser [01:30:30] Yeah. What do you think's next for Organic Connects? What do you see as your- where you're headed in your dream, too, long term?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:30:40] So I think it's time for us to start doing a couple of studies and even developing a national network of organizations for us to be able to funnel our youth into, you know, just thinking larger than Cleveland, larger than Ohio, because if someone wants to go to school, school out of state, then we want to have some of those avenues set up so that we can continue to support them. So national network is a really big thing that we're working on right now with organizations, other communities, and educational institutions, and also just delving a little bit deeper into the connection between environmental health and place attachment. So we have a college student intern who just started with us, and she's going to be leading this project. And if you all know, are you familiar with place attachment?

Arrye Rosser [01:31:37] Mm-mm. 

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:31:39] Oh, cool. So it's really just understanding what keeps someone where they are. You know, how do you view where you. How do you feel about where you live? And you know, unfortunately, in some low income communities, some residents, not all of them, because you have residents that. Some residents that have been in low income communities for a very long time, but there is a level of transiency and also going back to environmental health, is there a reason? Well, what one? What's the connection between place attachment, how do you feel about where you live, environmental health and transiency, if- if at all? So she's doing some research on that. This is her capstone for her senior project. And I think that the findings of this will be really, really interesting and kind of set a, a foundation for. For how Organic Connects, does our work in the future, you know, because if we're trying to connect with and stay connected with individuals in low income communities or, you know, from communities of color, then understanding a little bit better from a personal perspective will help guide the work that we're doing.

Arrye Rosser [01:33:02] Yeah, yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:33:03] So those are two major projects that are coming up.

Arrye Rosser [01:33:05] I would think there's a lot of opportunities for citizen- for citizen science too, that kind of work or research and things like that. It's interesting you've got a student going on. We should think about that for money we might be able to get for Cuyahoga 50. Like, is there a way we can plot together?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:33:23] I'm all about partnerships. I'm all about it.

Arrye Rosser [01:33:28] We got another level of dreaming on our end we need to work on too.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:33:31] Okay, let's- We'll keep the conversation.

Arrye Rosser [01:33:33] Keep it going, Keep it going.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:33:34] Definitely.

Arrye Rosser [01:33:36] Let me ask a few targeted things about sort of African American perspectives. Let me just see what we've already talked about. Oh, is there any, like, authors or public figures that inspire you? Do you have any one that. We've talked a lot about people, you know, but is there anyone else that.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:33:57] So it's interesting. I'm sorry to interrupt.

Arrye Rosser [01:33:59] No, no, go ahead.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:34:00] That you mentioned the Harlem Renaissance and earlier on in our conversation, James Baldwin is one of my absolute favorites. And the way, you know, as LGBT, part of the LGBT community, as, you know, Black American author, poet, civil rights activist. The way he very- He just conveys information in such a answer, easy to receive way. It could be brutal information, but the way that he says it, you know, just makes it. At least for me personally, you know, I'm not. I'm a black American, too. So I appreciate the way that he says things to people and because I know that when you're talking about something that's really, really uncomfortable, delivery can be everything. And he's- he's smooth, he's pointed, he is impactful. I mean, there's so many adjectives I can use to describe James Baldwin. And I just had so, so much respect for his writings and his ability to speak on things that are super uncomfortable but real to whomever.

Erich Schnack [01:35:22] He's got that one awesome quote where he says, I criticize and America so much because it's my favorite place to be.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:35:29] Is it? You see what I'm saying? Like, yeah, I heard that, but I forgot about that one. Like, that is smooth. Like, it's- I'm hitting you. But guess what? It's. I'm loving it as well. So understand what I'm trying to understand what I'm saying from my perspective. And there's another quote that I have on my email signature. It's- Let me make sure I get this right. I think you know what I'm gonna say.

Erich Schnack [01:35:51] I know what you're-

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:35:52] Oh, you've seen my email before, right?

Erich Schnack [01:35:54] Yeah. Not everything.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:35:57] There you go.

Erich Schnack [01:35:57] Can be faced, but nothing-

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:36:02] Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. That was it. And that's really impactful. And it just means that if you want to see a difference, you have to do something. You can. You have to do something about it.

Arrye Rosser [01:36:21] And there's sort of an acceptance that all attempts won't be successful.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:36:27] Right. And that's a reality.

Arrye Rosser [01:36:28] He sort of breaks you maybe for. Have the endurance for it.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:36:33] Yes. But how will you know until you try?

Arrye Rosser [01:36:35] Yeah. How do you see people of color represented in outdoor spaces? Like, obviously, you're in this business, so you're paying attention to it. What are some of the things that you kind of cue into, I guess, either just in your daily life or how things are marketed?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:36:55] That's really interesting because right as you were saying that there were. I saw a black vulture. Oh, not a black vulture, a turkey vulture fly past the window. And I was thinking of a couple of the birders that I had spoken. I haven't seen a bird fly by the door all day, and now I see one, and I'm thinking about the birders. So had the opportunity to meet Dr. Drew Lanham, you know, at the. The presentation he did under conservancy. Yes. He's great. I really like him. I've known Dudley Edmondson, Edmondson now for a couple of years, you know, indirectly, like, we're not best friends or anything, but we were on a panel together some years back for the Cleveland Metroparks City Club. Did it at the Cleveland Metroparks Beach House. And we connected there. I even saw him the very next year because we took some students out to the Black Swamp Bird Observatory for America's biggest weekend birding festival. And that was cool. So he came and, you know, chilled with us for part of the day, walked around, did some birding, some hiking, and just sat down and had, like, a conversation on environmental justice. So that was cool. So, yeah, there are a ton of people doing a ton of stuff right now, even locally. I gotta give a shout out to my homegirls. Ebony Hood to Erica Hood, to Kim Smith Woodford. And I feel like, you know, all these ladies.

Arrye Rosser [01:38:31] Yeah, yeah. Kim's our two o'clock. [laughs]

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:38:34] Oh cool! What time is it? Am I gonna see her? Okay, it's almost 12. Who else? Nicole Jackson out of Columbus. So, I mean, there's a ton of people doing a ton of great stuff right now. Locally, there's a ton of people doing a lot of good things, you know, regionally and nationally. So I think the way that I'm seeing black people or people of color in green space these days, it's becoming- I think it's more- I think people of color have always been in green space. It's really us coming more to the forefront now just because the- Everybody else is talking about it. You know, there were times where, you know, we felt the need to just, you know, lay low, stay in the background because some people don't want us here, you know, and that's, that's reality. We've- We've felt that way. I've felt that way being in parks before, and it's really unfortunate. But listen, we're people. We're here. We're gonna take advantage of these opportunities as well. So I think it's a- it's a community of, you know, Black environmental leaders. It's a community of individuals working with organizations like National Park Service and the Conservancy to make sure that everybody has equitable access. You know, LAND studio. You know, David Wilson is doing some great, great projects and bringing trust for public land and, you know, just making sure that there's a platform for individuals to be able to speak on this. So, I mean, locally, I think there's a ton of great stuff going on right now.

Arrye Rosser [01:40:23] Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? We've been reflecting a bit on, like, what the word allies mean, what does that mean to you? Because we kind of as a majority white organization, not exclusively, but we're trying to figure that out, I think as an organization.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:40:44] Yeah. I think that's an interesting term because, I mean, if you all are familiar with Sun Tzu's Art of War, I don't know if you've ever- You do a lot of reading, huh? 

Arrye Rosser [01:40:56] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:40:57] [laughs] That's good. So, you know, take in information as you can. One thing that stood out for me in that book, and I think it's applicable to anybody, however you choose to use it in whatever part of your life. If you're a small country, how do you maintain peace with the surrounding countries who may want to take over your land or, you know, whatever reason, find some way to occupy your space, and then you become subjugated to doing things their way. So one thing is create alliances and make sure you have something to provide to those countries that's beneficial to them. So they're looking at you like, okay, we don't need to mess with them. We don't want to mess up this relationship because they're an asset to us. So if you, if someone feels like they're the underdog, and I'll get to your question eventually, but I'm just talking about alliances right now. If someone feels like they're the underdog, they have to figure out a way to have that other, Those larger countries surrounding them, look at you as an ally. So I'm saying that because if not that people of color are, you know, the big bad countries and white people are the small countries, it's more so based on that concept of mutual understanding, of supporting each other. So that way one person doesn't feel like they're either being taken advantage of or abused or, you know, completely just stepped on. So I think alliances is an ally in the sense when we're talking race, an ally is someone who shares privilege. So, and by that I mean, what resources are you providing? Just instead of just saying, oh, I support, I understand, I feel for what you're going through. That's great. So you're, you're not racist. Okay, I appreciate that. How can you be anti-racist? That's taken it to the next level. So if you are really an ally, then you're helping to provide the resources that somebody needs so that they can maintain healthy or maintain. So that they can maintain their health and also get to where it is they need to go. And let's see, for example, one thing that makes people really, really uncomfortable and you know, I will say white people, just because we're talking about it right now is, you know, when we say, when a person of color says, oh, you should give up some of your privilege, you know, does that mean if you're making a million dollars a year, donate $500,000 to this impoverished community? Not necessarily. But if there is one way that you can connect the homeless community to or use your power to help change a bill or a policy, you know, in that regard. So if you have access to something that somebody else does not, then maybe you can use your power and your sway to move the needle closer to benefiting the individuals that need that help and support. So that's just one example. But I think that a lot of things that are in place right now is policy and we do need that support at the leadership levels in order to see, see true change in our society. So I think that attending, speaking up, you know, if someone, and even on a more basic level, if you're in a situation, say you're hanging out with your friends, Erich, and somebody makes a comment that's absolutely a racial slur, letting that person know that that's wrong, you may get from your friend, like, oh, what are you now, an n-word lover? You know, like, okay, calm down. Let me tell you why that's wrong. That was absolutely unnecessary. But people do it. So if a friend is coming at you and attacking you for making them feel like what they did was wrong, then that's. We would expect an ally to, to stand your ground, you know, to not back down just because you're your friend who you've known for years, who might even be like your, your sister's husband, you know, like, they're in your family, they're close and you have a good relationship with them, but they do and say things that you absolutely do disagree with. Explaining to them why that's wrong would be an ally as opposed to letting it happen. Just because you're not joining in, you know, doesn't mean that you're- That would make you not racist, not joining in, and anti-racist would be telling that person that's wrong. This is why.

Erich Schnack [01:45:54] Silence.

Arrye Rosser [01:45:57] I remember that a lot. What do you think? Like, to you, I was reading in your website, like focus on environmental justice. What does environmental justice look like to you? Like, and how it would manifest itself to what the justice side of it and what kind of indicators are you kind of just personally kind of cluing into that are your things that you, that you want to see, like that needle move?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:46:25] Yeah. That's a really good question.

Arrye Rosser [01:46:27] And because there's a million things you can do, you can be a overwhelmed by you open yourself up to it. And then that happens to us organizationally too. Sometimes we don't get the focus, it's too much. And then we don't do anything.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:46:41] Right, right, right.

Arrye Rosser [01:46:42] So picking, picking your path sometimes is how you really am.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:46:46] Picking one or two things to focus on is a really good way to do that.

Arrye Rosser [01:46:50] So what do you feel like you're kind of tuning into that is the part of the needle, the environmental justice needle, that you're focused on?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:46:58] Diversity within organizations. And that's a long term goal, you know, and like I said, we're working with our youth to prep them, to support their journeys, to help guide them if they want that guidance into environmental fields. And we think also working with organization. So we don't want to put the onus on the students, you know, because it really takes both sides to make a difference. So if we're just saying, oh, you need to apply for this job, you need to apply for this job, you need to apply for this job. Here's the opportunities. It's, it's information. Here we go. Come on. You got it. What's wrong? But if the organization who's looking at those resumes is pushing that resume aside because the applicant's name is Jamal, that person did everything that they were supposed to do, but then you still have this barrier on this side. So it's also working with the organization so that we can come to a happy medium. And I think the easiest connection has been tapping into organizations that have DEI statements or you know, have put out there that they are working, they're actually making an effort to be more inclusive and equitable. So, you know, that's the low hanging fruit. And I think that once we develop so because we've been working with such young students and a couple of college students, we haven't really gotten that the data to be able to track whether or not we're making a distance because, distance, difference because the students haven't gone into these roles just yet. So once we get there, then we'll be able to start tracking that information. But right now it's really, this is the forefront of, this is the very beginning of that process of where we are. So I think having the conversation, acknowledging that issues exist in people's communities and providing resources to our youth and families and communities to address some of those issues is the beginning of the process. So right now it's really just talking about what is happening in your community, what is environmental justice? You know, so that's kind of where we are right now, the very beginning of that process.

Arrye Rosser [01:49:25] What do you, have you noticed, like cultural differences? I know, I feel like they exist, but in how people of color enjoy the outdoors. And as I think I'm kind of been interested in more than built environment a bit too. Like how we set up our parks. Sometimes we do things. For example, picnic tables is one where we have this sort of like there's one picnic table over here and one picnic. They're all far apart and they're not in a group environment. And sometimes that's a cultural thing. Like we just white people in little tiny groups. Like, you know what I mean? Like, is there things that you've been observing, you thought, geez, like there's something that's not really set up quite for maybe the cultural, the way that people may wish to do it. So they walk into a space and maybe thinking, this isn't my space, because this doesn't read that way culturally. I don't know. How does that make sense?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:50:24] Well, I don't know so much about the space because like I said, I've been going to church picnics, you know, annual picnics for years and everybody seems to have a really good time. Like we'll make it work.

Arrye Rosser [01:50:34] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:50:35] But I think it is more so. And this is on an individual basis, an individual level that we do recreate differently. You know, when black people come together, we like music, sometimes we're loud and then we'll get the white people walking past us and looking at us like we're crazy or like, God, turn that music down. But we like to have fun, you know, and music is fun for us. So those are some of the cultural differences that I've seen before, you know, level of sound and recreating differently, having fun. Recreation to someone else might be canoeing, you know, and whereas to somebody else it might be playing a game of basketball, you know. So I think recreation is a- That's definitely one. A couple of differences that I've seen culturally.

Arrye Rosser [01:51:35] Yeah, it's all just super interesting. Yeah, we're. This is a little bit about us, but we're piecing together a hundred year history of groups bringing African American black youth to Cuyahoga Valley for outdoor recreation. And the earliest that we found I found is Girl Scouts in the 1920s. So it really is a hundred year history. We're still trying to understand the history and it's not kind of like one note. It's really coming in a bunch of different directions. It's been really quite fascinating. But when you hear this, what kind of questions do you have? Like, we're literally at the point Erich and I will be spending the next couple months just starting to curate these stories. And I'm curious, like, as you probably and your students you're working with would be interested in reading those stories, like, what kind of questions should we be answering? Or at least if we don't know the answers, what would you. What should we be posing, like, 100 year. Like, what do you.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:52:43] Well, I'm interested in Camp Mueller.

Arrye Rosser [01:52:44] Yeah, yeah, we're definitely working on Camp Mueller.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:52:47] Okay.

Arrye Rosser [01:52:48] Now I'm just curious, like, given the. Not even. Like, what do you wonder about? Like, if you just asking the question of if you could ask them or something, what would you wish to know of the history of black recreation and the valley or other people?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:53:16] What exactly was this land a hundred years ago? You know, like, how was it being used? What was the layout? Was it more for, like, business or traveling or residential? Or was it a recreational green space a hundred years ago? What different types of people utilize this space? And that's really where my mind goes. I mean, 100 years ago, 1920s.

Arrye Rosser [01:54:04] I mean, we're going back for African American experience in the Valley. We could go back into the canal era for sure. So it's a lot older, but we've been- The recreational thread is probably at least 100 years, which is pretty interesting given segregate, you know, segregation and Black laws.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:54:28] Right.

Arrye Rosser [01:54:29] It's fascinating to me that people came here.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:54:34] I'd be curious to know too. And I guess this is opening up that time frame a little bit. How far back can the history, can the research go? Like, how far back will the information that you find, you know, come up to the forefront. Because I'm definitely curious to know, like, what this land specifically. What role this land specifically played and like the Trail of Tears, you know, I don't think this was one of the cities on that route, but-

Arrye Rosser [01:55:13] But we have.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:55:13] When people were migrated to different locations, you know, what. What was this places. What was this place like during that time?

Arrye Rosser [01:55:21] And we've heard that from other folks too, that we've talked to, that a lot of black Americans feel a lot of affinity for the displacement of Native Americans. And some of them, you may have relationship, I mean, family ties, but that, that storyline. And a lot of times we're evaluated a bit with black eyes, with how we deal with the native story. And that's another one we need to figure out as we head into the 50th. Like, I feel like we've. We're, like, opening up all these different, difficult things, but I kind of feel like, let's go there. I mean, how can you celebrate and not talk about things?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:56:08] Right? Yeah, exactly.

Arrye Rosser [01:56:09] Yeah.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:56:11] It's not me.

Arrye Rosser [01:56:12] Yeah, it's okay. So the work that we're talking about can be really heavy. Like, how do you stay positive? I'm curious. How do you restore yourself, too, you know, when it gets you down? 

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:56:27] Yeah. Well, that's a good thing about nature. You know, nature is going to be itself all the time, regardless of what's going on in our lives. It's still therapeutic. It's, you know, regardless of who was living here before and the processes that have occurred to change that up or to make it what it is now, nature is still going to be nature. And it's just something that I appreciate. So wherever I am, I can still facilitate a connection, you know, a therapy session with nature in and of itself, regardless of any human interaction. So I try to separate the two. And that just goes back to the bittersweet that I was mentioning. Like, it's great that this is here and accessible for anybody to appreciate. So I focus on the sweet when I'm in nature and when I'm talking about nature. And I'm grateful for what the trees and the water and our ecosystem and everything that's around us, the air provides for us. So I focus on the sweet. That's how I keep it positive.

Arrye Rosser [01:57:40] What is giving you hope these days?

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:57:45] Children always give me hope. They do, because it's like. And, you know, I talk about this with my husband all the time. We- And because I love Marvel Comics [crosstalk] and I'm like Magneto from the X Men. He was best friends with Dr. X, right? With Xavier.

Arrye Rosser [01:58:06] I actually do like the X Men, yes.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:58:08] So it's like, let's make sure that our children are in a place where they're using their power for good, because it doesn't take long and it doesn't take something super significant to turn a superhero into a villain, you know, so let's use our power for good. So when we're looking at our children, they haven't been tainted by life just yet. Even the children that are living in horrible situations, you know, don't get me wrong, there are some children who are struggling and, you know, unfortunately have had traumatic experiences. But I think children are so resilient, and if they can have some positivity and you know, be in a different place. Even if it's just for a moment they have memories to hold onto. If they have to go back to a horrible environment at home they have something positive to refer to. And if we can just provide more consistent positivity for our children then we can expect them to be those superheroes and not those villains.

Arrye Rosser [01:59:20] Is there anything else that you'd like to tell us? We've covered a lot of territory.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:59:26] No, I think that's it. Yeah, yeah, a lot of questions.

Arrye Rosser [01:59:29] Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. Thank you for probably spent a little more time than you thought but that's okay. Let's appreciate it.

Whitnye Long-Jones [01:59:36] I'm really curious to see the outcome. Well then let me ask this. What's the timeframe for you all for this project?

Arrye Rosser [01:59:41] Oh yeah, and I always feel like we're gonna disappoint people a bit because it's sort of-

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