Chuck Stokes interview, July 2021

Abstract

Chuck Stokes is the son of Senator Louis Stokes. In both oral histories, he shares family memories and lessons learned from both Carl Stokes and Louis Stokes. Topics include childhood hobbies and outdoor activities. He also speaks about his career in journalism in Detroit, Michigan, where he works for WXYZ-TV / Channel 7. This oral history was conducted in two sessions on July 12 and July 27, 2021.

Interviewee

Stokes, Chuck (interviewee)

Interviewer

Schnack, Erich (interviewer); Ross, Rainah (interviewer); Woodyard, Matthew (participant)

Project

Cuyahoga Valley National Park

Date

7-12-2021

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

205 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Chuck Stokes interview, July 2021" (2021). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 343016.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1433

Related Resources

CVNP @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Rainah Ross [00:00:00] Testing, testing. Yeah, this is Chuck, right?

Rainah Ross [00:00:19] Okay. I’m Raina ross. Today is July 12, 2021. We are conducting an oral history with Chuck Stokes. It is 1:35pm my tech person is Erich Schnack. So first we’re going to start off with an overview of your family. What is your full name?

Chuck Stokes [00:00:55] My full name is Louis Charles Stokes. Everybody calls me Chuck. That’s my nickname.

Rainah Ross [00:01:04] Where and what year were you born?

Chuck Stokes [00:01:08] I was born in 1954 and I was born in the city of Cleveland, Ohio.

Rainah Ross [00:01:14] What was your mother’s and father’s family full names?

Chuck Stokes [00:01:19] Oh, my father’s full name is Louis Stokes and my mother’s full name was Mildred Sharply.

Rainah Ross [00:01:28] What year were each of them born?

Chuck Stokes [00:01:30] Oh, my God. Now you testing me. I can tell you their ages are easier. Dad was born, I believe, 1925. If memory serves me correctly, he died at age 90. And my blood mother, who was Mildred Sharply, she is now 91 years old. So I think there was, I think there were maybe five years between them. I’d have to go back and double check. I can check afterwards and give you-

Rainah Ross [00:02:06] Okay.

Chuck Stokes [00:02:06] Her exact thing. And then my stepmother, who was also very much involved in raising me, her name was Jeanette Francis, her maiden name was Francis. And she and my father, Louis Stokes, were married for over 50 years.

Rainah Ross [00:02:31] What are your siblings’ names?

Chuck Stokes [00:02:34] My oldest sister, I have four sisters. My oldest sister is Shelley Stokes, followed by Angela Stokes, followed by Lori Stokes. Her full name is Laureen Stokes, but she goes by Lori. Everybody knows her by Lori. And then I also have a sister named Kathy Manuel, and her maiden name was Foster. And so between the two marriages, I have four sisters.

Rainah Ross [00:03:14] And if you can remember, what year were each of them born?

Chuck Stokes [00:03:19] Oh, now that I can’t. Not off the top of my head because if I try to do it, I’m gonna screw it up and get somebody so somebody’s year and date wrong. But if, if you need me to go back after you do the interview and double check, you know, exact things, if you need all that, I can do that.

Rainah Ross [00:03:39] Okay.

Chuck Stokes [00:03:40] Okay. But I have two that- two that are older and two that are younger. I’m sandwiched in the middle.

Rainah Ross [00:03:47] Okay. Thank you. Tell us about your mom. What was she like? Her personality.

Chuck Stokes [00:04:00] Okay, so let me, let me back you up a little bit. Okay, so you’re. Because there were two marriages, you’ve got to kind of be a little more specific for me in terms of who you want me to talk about. In terms of folks.

Rainah Ross [00:04:21] We can start with your birth mother.

Chuck Stokes [00:04:23] Okay. All right. My birth mother, her name is Mildred and she was an educator. She’s now retired. And. Hang on one second. You might be getting a little bit of that. I think my computer. Let me turn this thing off. So you aren’t getting what people are trying to text me. You’re getting that little bleep and I don’t want you to get that. Okay. Sorry about that. All right. My birth mother, Mildred, she’s an educator. She used to be principal of an elementary school in Cleveland. So education was always very important to her. And she was born and raised. Well, she was born in Alabama, but moved to Cleveland at a very young age and basically raised and lived her entire life in Cleveland until the last five or six years. And then she moved to the Detroit area to be a little closer in, in proximity to me and my youngest sister, Kathy. I’m sorry, go ahead.

Rainah Ross [00:05:46] You know, you can continue.

Chuck Stokes [00:05:47] Okay. But she was, you know, she’s still living. She’s 91. Delightful person. And then my, uh, stepmother, Jeanette Francis, she still lives in Cleveland and she was. I lived most of my life with my blood father, Louis Stokes, and my stepmother, Jay Stokes, but they were, we didn’t call them stepmothers and stepfathers. They were, they were mothers and fathers because we were close to all of the parents and all the parents were involved in our raising and upbringing and instilling in us the various ideals and principles and morals that we hopefully have shared and share now with our children. So the day to day raising of me was Jay Stokes, and she was a wonderful mother, taught me most of the things that I know, disciplined me when I needed to be disciplined, as all kids do, do from time to time, but just had a very loving spirit. She was, had a career in real estate. She also was very talented as an artist and very skilled in that as well. Probably could have pursued that as a career, but was so busy helping with the raising of me and my sisters that she really dedicated herself to working with my dad in terms of keeping the house going and getting us to our various chores and helping us with our homework and getting us to the doctors and doing all of those things that loving parents do. So, and she was a great partner for my father because, as you know, his career was very involved with public life, and so he was always on the move. And whether it was in Cleveland or was in Washington, whether it was during his days as a lawyer or his 30 years in the halls of Congress, it was a very, very busy life that took him out of the house a lot. And so a lot of times we would see him early in the morning, and then we’d see him in the evening when he got home. But during that large course of the day, it was really my mother, Jay Stokes, that was very involved with keeping the household organized and keeping all of us where we needed to be and getting us to where we needed to be. And then had a stepfather. His name is Rufus Foster. He is now deceased. Both of the fathers are now deceased. He was also an ed- he was an educator like my blood mother. And he was the band teacher at John Adams High School in Cleveland for many years. He also worked in the evening at the downtown postal office. So like many African Americans, he had two careers. One that was sort of his passion, that was the music, and the other one was to put food on the table and make sure that he provided well for my mother and my youngest of the four sisters, Kathy.

Rainah Ross [00:10:00] Okay, you mentioned that your parents help you pass some lessons on to your kids. What were some of the lessons that you passed on that you got from your parents?

Chuck Stokes [00:10:14] I think the main thing that we got from them was they were all sticklers for education. Getting your education, getting a good education, that that was your ticket to a good career and success in being financially independent. And so they always wanted us to excel and do well in school. And when we didn’t do well, we would hear from them about it. They would make us work harder like most parents do. But we were typical kids. You know, we liked sports and we did all sorts of fun things, but we were, by and large, you know, good kids, good students, and none of us got into any serious trouble. The other thing, and I also got this from my grandmother. My father’s mother, Louise Stokes, lived with us for a considerable period of time, I would think, during a good portion of my elementary K through 12 years, up until I was probably in junior high. Latter part of junior high. Yeah, probably the latter part of my years. They now call it middle school, but we used to call it junior high. And I was in junior high at Woodbury. And then she moved into her own place. So a good portion of my childhood, my father’s mother, my grandmother, who we all called Grandma, lived with us. And so we were really being instilled these type of principles and values from all of them. I remember my parents, as well as my grandmother, always saying, if you’re nice to people, people will be nice to you, and so treat people the way you want to be treated. And that was a very serious message from all of them. It wasn’t just talk. They didn’t want us to walk around with big egos. They didn’t want us to think that we were special. Especially, you know, once Dad and Carl got launched into very public careers in which they received a lot of public attention. They said, you know, you put on your pants the same way everybody else does. And you are- You aren’t special, and you need to make sure that you carry yourself with respect and make sure that you respect people. And so I think that was really instilled in all of us to be kind to people, that public service was important, volunteerism was important, but also make sure that you find what it is that gives you fulfillment in life. None of them ever forced us into any careers that we didn’t want to go into. You know, they encouraged us to find what it was that really interest us and then pursue that, but pursue it with passion. You know, they used to constantly say, you have to pick your career because you have to get up every day and go to whatever that job is. And so you must be happy with that career and don’t do something for us, do something for yourself. And so I think all of us took that to heart, and we all have various careers, and I think it’s worked out pretty well for most of us.

Rainah Ross [00:13:56] All right, could you describe your biological father? What was he like in his personality?

Chuck Stokes [00:14:03] Oh, he’s a wonderful person. He was a great father, a great husband, great grandfather. He- he always was interested in talking to us about life and about careers, and he was a wonderful provider. He made sure that we had all the things that we needed to have wholesome lives. You know, none of us ever went a day hungry. Even though he was very busy with his- his law career and his congressional career, he always made time for families. And as busy as he was, I’m always mindful of the fact that anything that was really important in our lives as children, he made those events. Whether it was graduation from- from high school and college and grad schools or events with our children. You know, I have two daughters and a wife. As they were growing up, you know, he and my mother would take time to come visit. If there was a special ceremony that they were involved in or just different highlights of their career, they would often get in the car and drive over to Detroit to be involved with those activities. They were passionate about their grandkids, all of their grandkids. That gave them great thrill in life. As they used to say their job was to spoil the grandkids. And our job was to unspoil the grandkids. So they did a pretty good job, and hopefully we did a pretty good job at keeping them centered. But. And they all have very, very special, wonderful memories of time with my dad, their grandfather. For me, as the only son, there were wonderful moments that centered around sports. He enjoyed sports and I enjoy sports. He would come to my Little League games when I was a kid playing Little League or, you know, try to when I was, you know, involved in football in school or running track, he would make those events. Later in high school, I was involved in a little bit of theater and plays. And he would make sure that he would come see those events because I think it would give him a view of my world and how I was growing up. You know, I have great memories of sitting inside Cleveland Municipal Stadium, the old stadium before it got torn down, watching the championship football game, the last championship game that the Browns won back in the ’60s with Jim Brown and Gary Collins, Walter Beach and so many of the greats on that team. It was a cold day. It was freezing. I was a little boy, I think I was about 12 at the time. And, you know, he wrapped me up around his arms, trying to keep me warm out on that frigid day. I still have these great memories of snow coming from everywhere with the Browns winning the game. Pretty sure it was 27 to nothing when they played the Baltimore Colts. So, you know, we drove. He drove me down to Ohio State one time and it was a torrential rain pour to enjoy an Ohio State football game. And so I love the Buckeyes till this day, even though I live in Michigan. So I sort of whisper that now my Spartan wife and my daughter and son-in-law who work for University of Michigan, probably don’t like to hear me say that too often, but they know, they know I still like the Buckeyes, but, you know, those were just times that stick out in your memory because it was cold and it was wet and I was a little boy. My mother was worried that I was going to catch a really bad cold. And so I remember him, you know, taking me back to the hotel, putting me in a hot tub and making it sure that I didn’t catch a cold. And we just, you know, we watch different sporting events together throughout the years. You know, we’re in the same college fraternities, the. So we have that in common. So there are just many, many wonderful memories that I have. And he was always there. He was always there. He always set a wonderful example for me and for my children as a father, as a grandfather, and then also in the public realm. We had great- I certainly have great respect for all the things he was able to accomplish, not so much for himself, but for other people. He was a fighter for the people of Cleveland and for African Americans as a whole and for the average American. He has strong belief in what was right and what kind of America he wanted people to grow up in. And so he would fight for those principles and those policies that he felt were in the best interest of most Americans. And so whether it was chairing the House Assassinations Committee, looking into the deaths of President Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Or it was chairing the various investigative committees that he was involved in and chaired that Tip O’Neill asked him to do. You know, whether it was Abscam or, you know, there were just so many different ones that he was involved in. And- And I think most people in history will say he did a superb job chairing those committees and representing Cleveland with great esteem, so that Clevelanders would always be proud of his representation there in Congress. And then, of course, when he was honored by his colleagues in Congress and received special Congressional Medal from his colleagues as one of the outstanding members of Congress, that’s not given to every member of Congress and only a handful through the years have received it, I think that gave him tremendous respect that he was able to, tremendous pride, I should say that he was able to receive that from his colleagues, both Democrats and Republicans, because he always tried to work across the aisle. He was a proud Democrat, as he would say. He was a blue-blood Democrat, but he knew that to get something accomplished, you had to work with members from the opposite political party. And so he had great friendships with Republicans and he worked with them, and they would work together to find common ground. And he felt like you can stay true to your- your basic principles, but you should always be willing to work with your colleagues, no matter what political party they were from, on behalf of the American people. And so I remember, you know, there was a congressman named Carl Purcell who represented the Ann Arbor area here in Michigan, who was passionate about education. And they were on committees together and they worked together to get things done. And he had friendships like that all across the country. And those- Those were during the days in Congress when it was far less partisan than it is now. And they would, you know, they made sometimes, you know, debate each other on the floor of the House in terms of policy. But then right after that, they would go out and have dinner together or have drinks together or, you know, fellowship. And their families would fellowship with each other because they liked each other. They just, you know, at times with challenges ideologically, but they wouldn’t involve themselves in personal attacks on each other because they realize once you start doing that, then it creates tremendous ill will and it’s hard to work together on legislation. So he stayed very true to those types of principles.

Rainah Ross [00:24:00] Your father had a strong sense, sense of civic duty. Where do you believe he got that from?

Chuck Stokes [00:24:07] I think probably from my grandmother. My father’s father died when he was only three years old, and my Uncle Carl was only a year and a half, I believe. So they didn’t really know their father. It was my- my- my grandmother, their mother, Louise Stokes, who raised them. And she was a small lady in size and stature, but she was strong in her principles, and she was strong in terms of telling them that it’s not where you start in life, it’s where you end up. And she insisted that they get their education. She was someone who worked in the homes of wealthy white Clevelanders, scrubbing their floors and helping them take care of their homes and washing their clothes and helping them with their kids. You know, they commonly back then referred to them as domestics. But she was someone who would like to think was of service to people in their homes in a very positive way that helped them keep their homes together. But she had to work with her hands. And so I constantly heard her and my father talk about that. She always wanted them to get their education so they would not have to work with their hands. You know, I remember she- her having very arthritic ridden hands by the time she reached her senior years from all of the tedious work that she had to do physically. But she took great pride in her work, and she knew that she was the best at the type of work that she did. And that’s why people employed her for. For years and years, those families, and wanted her to constantly be in their employment because of the- the pride that she took in her work. But she knew it was hard physical work, and she wanted them to, as she said, get something in your head so you won’t have to work with your hands. And she said, once you get something in your head, that’s something that can never be taken away from you. And so she pushed them to be the best of whatever they could be. And she took great pride in the fact that one became the first African American mayor of a major American city and the other one to become the first African American Congressman of the state of Ohio. And she took great pride in that. But she, she was a religious woman. She was a Christian and she didn’t wear it on her sleeve. You didn’t hear her running around bumping the Bible as they sometimes say, or- It wasn’t in her speech, her day-to-day speech, it was in how she lived her life. I remember as a kid, she always kept the Daily Word, a little book on her nightstand in her Bible and she would read from it in the evenings. But it was a very private thing. It was between her and her God. She would go to church as often as she could. That was very important to her. But whereas, you know, oftentimes sometimes, you know, hear people constantly talk about their religion to try to convince you that they’re very religious, she never did that. She lived her religion. It was in the things she, she did on a day to day basis that let you know that she was a strong Christian person who at the center of her life and everything she did was her belief in God. And she believed that if I just live a good, honest, honorable life, then good things would come to me and come to those in my family. And so that’s what she was. And, and she would, you know, she was small, but when she saw something she didn’t like that my father or my uncle did, especially when they were coming up and these many times the stories that they would tell us, because some of those things we didn’t see because it was when they were young men growing up, before some of us were even born. But we saw enough in our, in her later years in terms of her personality and just little things that, that she may not like, that they may have done or something that they, maybe they said on television. She was, she would take them on, you know, in a very nice way, but a very respectful way. She would keep them grounded and centered and, and while she, she really had tremendous pride in what they did, she never let them get the really big head. You know, she, she’s the one person who could, who could keep them in their place if they even started to think that they were all that. But she, she was a fabulous, fabulous couple cook. She loved her grandkids. She would let us do things that the parents wouldn’t let us do, but we couldn’t tell and she would let us. She stayed up on the third floor in our house on Albion Road for many years. And it was a furnished, like a, like a third floor attic, but it was, it was, you know, it was totally furnished it was like another room apart, another extension of the house. And, you know, it didn’t look like an attic. It looked like a- Like a totally different part of the house with, you know, back then, I guess the walls weren’t dry walled or they’re probably plaster. Those are older homes and stuff like that. But it was a beautiful area. And so we would sneak up to her room and she would let us watch television sometimes when we were supposed to be in bed asleep. And she would. She would make us. She loved- She was a great cook. And she used to make root beer floats for us. Vanilla ice cream and root beer. She loved root beer there or other type of treats. And she used to buy. I don’t know if they. I know they still make them. I think they’re called Drumsticks. I don’t know if you ever had them. They were like ice cream-

Rainah Ross [00:31:42] Yeah.

Chuck Stokes [00:31:42] Cones with the nuts on top and the chocolate.

Rainah Ross [00:31:46] Yeah.

Chuck Stokes [00:31:46] Freezer. And so she would- She would buy those and she would let us eat those up in her room and. But we’d have to go quiet because our parents thought we were in bed. And we would- We would go in our rooms and we get under the covers, and then we slip out from under the covers and we stuff pillows up underneath our covers to make it look like we were in bed. And then we really just sneak up to our grandmother’s area. So we had a lot of fun with her, but see, but I think they got this strong moral compass from my grandmother.

Rainah Ross [00:32:30] How did your parents meet? You can start with your biological parents.

Chuck Stokes [00:32:43] My sister knows this better than I do because she’s the oldest of the group. I know that they were introduced by a mutual friend, friend of my father, who- who later, I think, became a minister in Philadelphia. But they were in- They were in school together at Case Western Reserve, and a mutual friend introduced them and they started dating, and then they ended up getting married and were married, I believe, I want to say, roughly seven years before they ended up getting a divorce. And so my oldest sister, Shelley, and the next youngest sister is a year and a half older than me. Shelley’s four years older than me. Me, and Angie is a year and a half older than me. And. And then I- Next- So the three of us were a product of my blood father, blood mother, and- And then they end up getting a divorce. And then they- Both sides got re- Both parents got- Both biological parents, if you can keep up with all this, got remarried. They both got remarried and both of them have wonderful marriages. Both Sides were married to their new partners for over 50 years. And out of those marriages, my blood mother and stepfather, they had one daughter whose name is Kathy. She’s the youngest of my four sisters. And then my blood father, Louis, and my stepmother, Jay, they had one daughter, Lori, who’s the third oldest among the sisters. And I think Lori is like seven years, maybe seven years younger than me. So. And they ended up my- I’m trying to think, my stepfather and, I mean my blood father - getting all this straight - my blood father and my stepmothers, Louis and Jay, they were introduced by a mutual friend. A woman named Addie White introduced them in- Jay White. Jay White was an attorney in Cleveland, a prominent attorney, and his wife, Addie White, she was, I believe, a hairstylist in Cleveland. And she was- And they actually ended up getting married themselves, I think. So somehow they- They all ended up married. I’m probably not doing the best job of exactly how everyone met, but it was through mutual friends. And, you know, obviously the attraction was there, and they had a wonderful relationship and. And we, we got along with everybody and we had great times and we had. We have great memories from all of our parents, and they were all involved with, you know, our upbringing. We would visit my blood mother and my stepfather. We would go visit them. They live not terribly far. We grew up basically in Shaker. They grew up- They lived for a long time in the kind of- There’s a street called Biltmore, the Lee-Harvard area. And so it was, you know, as kids, we could bike there, we could healthy day walk there, and we would go visit them there. And then later, as my youngest sister, probably about the time she was kidding, in elementary school or part of elementary school, they moved to Shaker on Van Aken. And so they were even closer in terms of physical proximity to where we lived on Albion Road in Shaker.

Rainah Ross [00:37:28] Okay. How do you look back on your childhood?

Chuck Stokes [00:37:34] Oh, boy, I have nothing but great memories. You know, we had a lot of fun. We. It was a strong neighborhood. You know, we grew up in the Ludlow neighborhood there in Shaker. And just wonderful memories. You know, we knew everybody on the street. Everybody knew us. All the parents knew the kids. All the kids knew the parents. Everybody was your parent. But so if a neighbor saw you doing something you weren’t supposed to do, unlike today, the neighbor would tell you and you knew that you better straighten up and fly right, because they would be- By the time you got home, they had already called your house and told your parents, and you knew you better not talk back to anybody because they were adults. And you were supposed to be respectful of all adults, whether you knew them or you didn’t know them. You knew that they were older than you, and you better not be disrespectful. But it was a very loving neighborhood. Everybody looked out for everybody. And we had a lot of fun. We would- It was the day before cell phones and video games. And so our play was- Especially in the summertime, our play was outside. You know, we couldn’t wait to finish having breakfast and then get outside and play. And the only rule that the parents had was make sure you’re back home before the street lights come on. And we knew that. We knew that if the streetlights came on, we better be, if not home, we better be on our street within, within sight. That if they just stepped out the front door and looked, they would see us or somebody else that’s a friend that they could easily say, you know, where’s Chucky? Where’s Shelley? Where’s Angie? Where’s Lori? And so it’s- It was that type of neighborhood. And we, you know, and we were generally on our street, street or maybe a couple streets over. They always knew, you know, where we were, or they could make a quick call and find out because they knew who our- who our closest friends were. So we had a lot of fun, you know, whether it was in school or out of school. When it was in school, we were involved with our class work. But those were also the basis of our friendships as well, whether it’s in elementary school at Ludlow or Woodbury Junior High or Shaker Heights High. Now, I, unlike my two oldest sisters, I went to Shaker schools all the way up until my last year and a half of high school. And then my parents moved to the Washington, D.C. area. And they told me I was moving with them. And so I said, well, what do you mean? I only have a year and a half of high school left, and these are all my friends. And they say, we understand. They said that you and Lori are moving to D.C. with us. I thought they had lost their mind, but I didn’t have a choice in the matter. And looking back on it, it was a wonderful move because kids adapt very quickly and easily at that age. We moved to Silver Spring, Maryland. I did my last year and a half of high school at John F. Kennedy High in Silver Spring, Maryland. And I developed wonderful friendships. And I saw another city, another part of the country, and it exposed me more. I think it opened me up more. I saw something I would have never experienced had I spent all of my K through 12 years in one city, in one state. And so I learned something about the Washington, D.C. area. You know, D.C., Maryland, Virginia. Learned something about the nation’s capital. I learned something about the state of Maryland and the state of Virginia and the District of Columbia that I was able to experience. And so I think it broadened me. I now have friends. I have, you know, tremendous friendships from people that went to, you know, grade school within Cleveland, but also I have great friendships from people I went to high school with in Silver Spring, Maryland, the D.C. area. And I was recently on a Zoom call a few months back with a lot of the kids that were in my graduating class in the Maryland high school. And I’ve been back to reunions for the one in Cleveland as well. So it was sort of an added benefit that if you had asked me if I wanted to do it, the answer would have been no. But to look back on it, I realized that that was. I was lucky to be able to have that. And so by the time I went on to college and stuff, then I- I had a broader view. I had- I had two high schools that. That I can relate to people from.

Rainah Ross [00:43:31] How did your father, Louis, balance home life with his career?

Chuck Stokes [00:43:38] Skillfully. I don’t know. I look back sometimes, say, how in the world did he do that? But it’s the same thing that my wife and I say from time to time when we look back on how we got our kids through all of their K through 12 years and then their college years, especially the college years, we look back and say, how in the world did we do that? And no one ever gives a good answer other than you just put one foot in front of the other. You know, what your job is as a parent. And you do what you hopefully feel is absolutely the best for your kids because you want them to always have more than what you have, have more experiences than what you have, go further than you’ve been able to go through and just expose them to more of the world than you were able to be exposed to. So I think each generation does that. Our parents were absolutely dedicated in terms of our advancement and our exposure. You know, they took us. You know, mom and dad took us on wonderful field trips, and they took us. We always went on summer vacations to various places around the country. And I think both my mother and my father felt like that’s part of our job, to expose these kids to as much as we can and make them realize that they can become anything they want in this world, so long as they work hard and they’re honest and they stay on the right side of the law, which we all did. So to answer your question specifically, he would. I’ll answer a couple ways. Because we saw our dad during his legal years. We were young enough to experience that before he went to Congress. You know, a lot of people, when they think about my dad and my uncle, they think of them in terms of the most public part of their life, which was the- Uncle Carl’s years as mayor and dad’s years in Congress. But there was a life before that. They were struggling lawyers. Started off as two young African American lawyers who, because of so much discrimination and segregation, they weren’t able to be part of big corporate law firms then. So they had to basically start their own practice and build up their own practice. And so we saw those years when they were out there hustling and just trying to get clients. And they had to be involved in many of the civic organizations, whether it was the NAACP or the Urban League or other organizations, to expose themselves to others and develop those networking relationships so that people would realize that they were good at their craft. So much of what they did was volunteerism. You know, dad did a lot of pro bono stuff, as did Carl, for these civil rights organizations, and then would also use the other balance of their time to represent clients. You know, dad did a lot of real estate law early in his career and then became really excelled at criminal defense lawyer and did that, you know, so they were, you know, getting people out of jail and representing people in their individual rights and making sure that, you know, that they got the best legal representation they could. And then, you know, of course, dad, you know, practice was lucky enough to practice cases before the U.S. Supreme Court with Terry v. Ohio, a landmark case. And they were doing those things, but in the evenings when whatever the hour was, because sometimes they came in late because their- their job, you know, demanded that they can’t just stop at 5 o’clock, that they had to work a little later. But they would come, they would be home, and so we would see that side of them. Of course, when dad went to Congress, there was a lot more travel involved because he was going back and forth between Cleveland and Washington. So there were sometimes weeks where dad would be gone for a week at a time or several days at a time, or, you know, we’d work in D.C. from Monday through Thursday evening and then get on a plane and fly back to Cleveland and spend Friday, Saturday and Sunday in Cleveland, dealing with constituent services and making different events and then fly back Sunday evening. And so there were a lot of weekends at that point where, you know, it was just me and Lori and Ma, and mom because dad was, you know, back in Cleveland doing his thing. But when the weekends came, and they had time or vacation time came or he wasn’t, you know, he was on recess from Congress, it was family events that they would try to always partake in with all of us. And as I said earlier, as busy as dad was, he never missed important events in all of our lives. And it wasn’t just me, it was me, my sisters. I don’t know how they juggled all those balls and did it all on very little sleep I’m sure. And in those few instances where dad couldn’t be there, my mother and talking about Jay Stokes now was always there and she was running the kids to all of the different, you know, events that we had, hobbies that we had, especially before we got our licenses and we could drive ourselves. She was the taxi service and she did a phenomenal job at doing it. She just shuttled us from place to place, from place to place, you know, whether it was music lessons, whatever it was, you know, sports, if, you know, she would do it. And then it goes back to your earlier question, especially when we’re in Cleveland, these were close knit communities and neighborhoods. And so if there was a conflict and my mother had three of us to get to various places and couldn’t get there, then it might be another mother or father or neighbor that would take the kids, especially if they were going through the same place, you know, and okay, then it was Mrs. such and such that was taking us that particular day. And then my mother would trade off on a different day and do it with, with their kids and all of us. So they all worked together because they were all struggling together to provide the best wholesome childhood that they could to all of us.

Rainah Ross [00:51:31] Did your father have any special hobbies? And if so, did he pass any of it down to you?

Chuck Stokes [00:51:44] I don’t recall Dad having any real hobby. I think he was too busy. Any real hobbies. Yeah, he really didn’t. My uncle loved gardening. I do remember that my uncle was quite a gardener. And whether it was flowers or it was, you know, vegetables he was trying to do. And Cordell, she probably told you more about that. And my uncle was really into dogs and also, you know, and at one point, you know, he would breed the dogs and that’s how we ended up getting our, our first dog, Ace, who was a Rottweiler. We got him from our, from my Uncle Carl because it was one of the, one of the babies in the litter. So he really loves doing stuff like that. Dad was not a gardener now. My grandmother was the gardener and loved working in the yard. And so I got those. I love gardening and I love, you know, growing my tomatoes and stuff. Now I got that more from my grandmother. I think if there was a hobby he probably, I think it was he read. Dad really enjoyed reading. You know, he, he would read a lot and so I think he would read kind of for relaxation. And dad liked my mom and my dad, they love taking trips. So if there was a hobby that he could do, he loved seeing different parts of America and different parts of the world. And they would just, they, they would love taking like road trips while we were kids. But also as we all grew up and got out on our own and were too busy doing our own thing, my mom and dad would jump in a car and they would just, they would just go take their various trips to really nice places and just enjoy. And, and they just enjoyed each other and being out with Mother Nature. My mother loved just nature and she was an artist, I told you earlier. So she really appreciated just the beauty of, of the world. And so they would take their different trips and side trips to various places and then have fun. And then of course they would, you know, love going to see the grandkids. But, but I think they were- Dad was so busy, I don’t think he had like hobbies like a lot of people, you know, have little side hobbies type of thing.

Rainah Ross [00:54:37] Okay, how did being in the spotlight impact your family?

Chuck Stokes [00:54:45] Oh boy. Probably different ways, depending on which one of the siblings you’re talking to. And it probably had a reflection and was tied somewhat to our individual ages as well. So everybody would have to sort of speak for themselves. But speaking for myself, there was an awareness at a young age that our family had done something historic, Something that people were proud of in general. But African Americans were particularly proud of the accomplishments that Dad and Uncle Carl had made. But. So we knew that on an intellectual level. But I think because my father was such a humble person, you never heard him bragging about the things he did, that just was not him. He was proud of what he did, but he wouldn’t walk around and tell you about what he did. He would let his work speak for itself. And he was just a down to earth person. And my uncle was down to earth too. They, they love they both loved people. I mean, they genuinely loved people and they genuinely loved serving people and working on behalf of people and trying to open up doors for people that have been closed before. I think they saw that as their mission in the world that we can knock down some doors that have been closed, but once we knock them down, we expect others to come through there and do a darn good job representing African Americans and representing Clevelanders. And in those few times when they may have opened up the door for somebody and somebody didn’t go in and do a good job, that really hurt them because they just felt like that’s not a mistake we can make. You know, we- we’ve got to take advantage of these opportunities. But I, I think because dad was so humble and not a braggadocio type of person that we sort of all took it in stride. And you know, we didn’t want to stand out among our friends and as something uniquely different, we wanted to just live our own lives. And so I know, at least in terms of my own upbringing, I just wanted to be one of the fellows. I wanted to play sports like everybody else when I wasn’t in school. And I wanted to have great friendships and just enjoy ourselves. And I didn’t want anyone to treat me different because my dad was in Congress and my uncle was mayor, that we didn’t think we were there was anything special about us as related to our next door neighbor. We were all just friends from the Ludlow neighborhood. And our friends treated us like we were just one of the folks and that’s how we wanted to be treated. And so I think as a result of that, we all stayed pretty grounded, at least I hope we did. And none of us walked around bragging about our parents. And I think as a result of that, we have these special relationships that go back to elementary school. You know, my wife and I were just talking to a friend of mine the other day. We just checked on him over the weekend. You know, I went to high school with and got other friends who I went to Ludlow Elementary School with. And we’ve remained wonderful friends, I think, because we were all just. It was our friendship that has connected us and not who our parents were or what our parents did. Even though we were all proud of our parents because even all of our friends, they were from all different professions, you know, some were teachers, some were engineers, you name it, it was, some were dentists, some were doctors. It was a very education focused neighborhood because I think everybody realized we were kind of lower middle class neighborhood that it was a working class. Right. Working class, middle class neighborhood is what I would call it. And, but everybody was trying to, all the parents were trying to be successful in their careers and they were trying to just make sure that they were providing better opportunities for the children coming up. And so that was, that was the neighborhood.

Rainah Ross [01:00:43] How involved was the family in your dad’s political career?

Chuck Stokes [01:00:51] Well, we’ve always been involved. We’ve always been supportive. You know, we used to do some campaigning with them, you know, during the congressional black- the 21st Congressional Black Caucus, you know, the, the Labor Day picnic. Many years we would all be there for that. Even when we went off to college and stuff like that. You know, we would come back for, for events like that. The Congressional Black Caucus weekend. They would always have the D.C. you know, there were countless years we would go to that with our kids and try to expose them to some of the political world as well. So I think as a family, we were just always there. We were always supportive of my father and my uncle’s work, but yet we had our own lives too. They wouldn’t, they would include us, but they wouldn’t smother us with the political world. They would expose us to wonderful opportunities where we could see that side of the world. But it wasn’t as though, you know, you had to go here and you had to do this and you had to do that. They gave us plenty of breathing and growing room. So we were fortunate to be able to see what the halls of Congress were like. But we could also just have our neighborhood friends and events as well, which I think kept us really grounded and focused. You know, we saw some, we met some fascinating people. We saw some fascinating things because of the world and the jobs that they had, which were, I think, instrumental in terms of our growth and our being well-rounded. But, but they also realized that that was their day to day world and while they wanted to expose us to it and anything that we wanted to be included in, they did their best to try to include us in it. They also realized that they wanted us to just have enough room to find our own identity in the world.

Rainah Ross [01:03:32] This is a pretty similar question, but did your parents try to keep your family life and your dad’s career separate?

Chuck Stokes [01:03:40] I’m sorry, repeat that again.

Rainah Ross [01:03:42] Did your parents try to keep your family life and your dad’s career separate?

Chuck Stokes [01:03:50] Yes and no. They. There certainly was plenty of crossover just because of the nature of his job, because it was public, and there were many events where he would want to include us to a particular dinner or a lunch or another event, but he would always. He was really, really good. Both my mom and my dad, they were really good at asking us, hey, such and such is happening. Do you guys want to go? And if we said no, there wasn’t any heavy pressure to say, well, no, you have to go. It was like, okay, well, yeah, you don’t have to, you know, because sometimes we would want to go and sometimes we wouldn’t because of what else we may have had going on in our lives. And so they were respectful of that. They- they gave us plenty of room, but we certainly made numerous family events together, political events, as a family, because we wanted to support my dad and we wanted to support my uncle. So we- we went to plenty of chicken dinners, make no mistake about that. And a lot of it was a lot of fun. You know, we had a lot of laughs. And this family, you know, kind of bonded around many of those events, and. And they would have extended family, too. It wasn’t just the immediate family. You know, we were close to our cousins in Buffalo and New Jersey and other places, and they would come in for some of these events, and dad would invite them, you know, the Black Caucus dinners and stuff. He would invite them, and we see all kind of cousins and, you know, extended family, and we would have a ball and a lot of laughs. And as the grandkids started, you know, coming into the world, they would come to these different events, and they. They were exposed to it as well. And then there were many dedications, you know, especially the latter years, as dad and Carl had accomplished so much. Clevelanders were such giving people in terms of honoring them with different buildings being named after them or streets or, you know, just an array of things. The kindness that that city has extended to our family will always remember and will always honor and take great pride in that. Clevelanders have not forgotten Carl and Dad’s contributions to not just the city and the state, but to the world. And so when those events happen, we do our best to be able to make them. And since the passing of both dad and Uncle Carl, those events still happen. And so we laugh sometimes and we kid among us and say, you know, they’re gone, but we’re still here making a whole lot of events on their behalf. But we realized that that was part of the territory, and that’s an honor that we’re happy to fulfill, that people have not forgotten them. And if we’re able to keep their legacy going by partaking in some of these different events and honors that people bestow upon them or in their name, then we’re happy to do so. And- and now our grandkids, they get some of that, too. And just the other day, my sister called to say that she was involved, and somebody had called her about honoring my dad at Howard University for the library that’s named after him. That happened about 20 years ago. And my youngest daughter is a Howard graduate. And so Shelley and my youngest daughter have now been asked to make some remarks. Shelley, in honor of that anniversary. And so I was laughing with my daughter, and I said, oh, it continues. And she’s very happy to do it. She’s a very proud Howard University Bison, but she’s the grandkid who graduated from Howard. So it’s only apropos that my older sister used to work at Howard. So it’s very apropos that those be the two members of the family that are involved in this particular anniversary that’s coming up. So, yeah, we, we, we. We all do what we can, and we’re very happy that people have- have continued to honor them. And they’re legacy.

Rainah Ross [01:09:35] Okay, are there any funny family stories involving your father or your Uncle Carl?

Chuck Stokes [01:09:43] Yeah, probably some we can’t tell you. You know, there have been many, many, many, because. Because they were really likable people, and they both had wonderful senses of humor. You know, probably some of the funniest things were. Or involved more of my dad and my uncle kidding each other, because my uncle was- was really kind of a jokester, and he used to like to try to, you know, needle my father, you know, whether it was about, you know, my dad’s balding hair. My dad, you know, started balding at a relatively young age. You know, I mean, most pictures you see of my dad, he does not have a lot of hair. And by the time, of course, you know, he got well into his 80s and 90s, he didn’t have any hair. But even when he was a young lawyer, you know, he didn’t. He never had just a ton of hair up there. And my uncle always had more hair there. So he would needle him and, you know, kind of rip him a little [01:11:01] bit, and they would go back and forth with each other a little bit on stuff, and they had a great relationship. But my- My uncle was more of the tease than my father was, but my father knew how to handle him and when to handle and then you go back and forth. But both of them were the type of people, when you were around them and their friends, the room was full of laughter because they. They just enjoyed life and they enjoyed people. And of course, my- My father, people really remember his laugh because my father had. I- I cannot do his laugh, but he has kind of an unmistakable laugh that those who know him, they know the. The Lou Stokes laugh. And a lot of people would get a kick out of just listening to his laugh because it was a very kind of unique laugh. And when he got really tickled about something, you know, he was slapless. He would slap his knee and slap his leg and he kicked back in his laugh, and they would go. But, yeah, I- I’m sure as I hang up, you know, certain ones will probably really pop into my- Nothing particular comes out at this particular time, but there were a lot of.

Rainah Ross [01:12:36] Yeah.

Chuck Stokes [01:12:36] Funny times and a lot of laughs. And, you know, I think about. There was one. We were all. It was a big family dinner. My grandmother used to love having these family dinners, and she was this, you know, as I said earlier, tremendous cook. And so my uncle and his family would come by and our family would be there, and there would be lots of laughs and talks at the dinner table and stuff like that. And I remember this one incident, which is kind of funny, in which my aunt. My- my uncle was asking my father about a Supreme Court case and trying to get particulars about it. And so my dad was trying to explain to him, you know, the The case and the case law involved. And I remember my aunt turned to him one time and she said, Carl, why are you always asking? And they called my- My father’s nickname- My nickname was Chuck. My father’s nickname was Billy. So family members would call him Billy. And so she was. She said, Carl, why are you always asking Billy about these Supreme Court cases? You’re a lawyer, too. And so my uncle looked at him as only my uncle could do one time. And he said, do you realize that this man sits around in his free time reading Supreme Court cases, and he knows all the case law, the particulars. He said, now it wouldn’t make sense for both of us to sit around reading that he already knows. So. And it was only as, you know, you’d have to almost be there. But it was typical. My uncle was kind of like, we’re not gonna both. I’m not gonna waste my time reading all that stuff when I just pick his brain and get it and let him sit around and read it. But there were those type of fun, type of, you know, laughs that we would have this family.

Rainah Ross [01:14:49] Okay. How did your father influence your aspirations as a child?

Chuck Stokes [01:15:02] I think from the standpoint of his. It wasn’t what he said as much as his example by doing. You know, they oftentimes say that if you really want to influence a kid, don’t tell them what to do, just show by your own example. And that’s what they learn the most from, because kids study and watch their parents and they take the good and they take the bad and they take it all in. And so that’s why it’s so important when you’re raising kids, to don’t say to them one thing and then do something else, because they’re going to notice that. So do what you say and say what you do. And I think that was my father. He wouldn’t sit around and preach to us about, you know, do this or do that or I want you to do this or I want you to be this, I want you to be there. And he was. He was really a stickler about telling us, you know, be whatever you want to be. You know, just be successful at what you’re going to be. So you won’t stay on his payroll. And he never picked our careers for us. He never insisted we had to do a particular career. Yes, I think he would have loved if one of us had gone into politics. None of us did. I think, and I think that’s the same with my uncle. And only one of the kids went into law. So I think, yes, as a normal parent, he probably would have loved if we had followed that exact same route, just from a prideful standpoint, because I think they felt like, you know, we worked hard to open up these doors so that it would be easier for you all to follow our footsteps. But he also knew that we had to be happy in what our chosen profession was. And so they- He was always very supportive and saying, look, you don’t have to go into law, you don’t have to go in politics. Just go into something, make a good, honest living, and we’ll be supportive and any stay true to that. And so as I picked journalism and, you know, one sister picked law, and my sister Lori picked journalism, and my sister Shelley had a corporate career and then career in development with Howard University. As we each picked our own careers, they were always there supporting us and proud of whatever successes we had in those various fields. And it wasn’t like some families, you know, you hear from time to time families where if a kid didn’t go the way that the same profession as their parent and the parent almost like disowned them. We never had that kind of foolishness going on in our house, in our family. It was like, look, you can be whatever you want to be. Just make sure it’s an honest living, good living, and you work hard and take care of your family. And so that’s the philosophy that he had and he stayed true to that. And I think in the end, when we had a 90th birthday party for my dad, he died in August. His birthday was in February. He turned 90 in February of that year. And then he died in August of that year. But he. So he didn’t make the 91st birthday. At that 90th birthday, you know, all the kids were there, all the grandkids were there, some of the cousins were there. He just beamed with pride that he could look across that room and see the fruits of his labor, the fruits of my mom’s labor, that everybody in that room was doing well, doing their own thing, had their own families. And he could look across the room and just say how blessed our family has been. And he would say that all the time. He said, you know, I am so blessed to have the family that I have. And he took great pride. And he particularly loved those grandkids. Oh my God, they could do. They could do no wrong. So. And they’re all doing well. All the grandkids have their different professions, you know, they all made it through college, you know, so, you know, and they’re just, they’re just, you know, we’re, as parents, we’re proud of them, but as grandparents, they’re particularly proud that they can look across and just see that regardless of what city they live in, regardless of what state, that all these grandkids have done a tremendous job. And hopefully his parents would have done a good job raising them, but they were particularly pleased with the grandkids.

Rainah Ross [01:21:16] Could you tell us about your career?

Chuck Stokes [01:21:20] Yeah. I’m editorial public affairs director at WXYZ-TV, which is the ABC affiliate in Detroit. It’s a Scripps Howard owned television station, part of the Scripps Family Scripts Broadcasting Group. I’ve been there since. I’ll give you the short version. I’ve been there. I’ve been at this station since 1981, so it’s a long time. And it’s a wonderful flagship station for the Scripps Broadcasting Group. We’re the largest of their locally owned and operated stations. We’ve got about 60, roughly 60 TV stations across the nation, and Detroit is the largest of the group and so we’re very proud of that. Detroit has been a wonderful town for me to practice my career in. I moved around a little bit before getting to Detroit. I started off in newspaper at the Washington Post and then I transitioned to television at the CBS affiliate in Nashville for a few years and then ended up coming to Detroit and didn’t think I’d be here as long as I been here, but just settled down, got married. I’ve been married for 38 years. I’ve got two daughters. We’re doing very well. My wife’s name is Trudy. T, R, U, D, Y. My wife’s born and raised in Detroit and so her family kind of adopted me when I moved here. The daughters, one’s name, the oldest one is Kelly and the youngest one’s name is Kimberly. Kelly is a graduate of George Washington University, Washington, D.C., her undergrad and master’s degree. She now works at the University of Michigan in development. She’s married and her husband is a University of Michigan graduate at the he works in public health for the University of Michigan Hospital, runs one of their public health departments, one of their medical departments, I should say. He’s originally from Minnesota, but they now live in Novi, Michigan. And then my youngest daughter is Howard University graduate undergrad and graduate school. And her field was education and she was a teacher for about five years. She taught in, in Brooklyn, New York, for a year or so and then came back and was working in the Berkeley, Michigan school system. And then about two years ago decided that she wanted to get her PhD and become a psychologist and so that she could work with kids at a different level. And so she got accepted into a program at Wayne State University. And so she’s what they call the Rumble Scholar program. And so she’s in a five year program. And so she just completed her second year of that program. So she’s got three to go. And then at what she finishes that up, she’ll have her PhD in psychology and clinical psychology. So she’s doing well. And she lives in downtown Detroit. She’s our urban dweller. She lives in the heart of downtown Detroit. So she loves, she loves the city life. And my career has been a wonderful career. I’ve traveled the country doing different stories and being involved in different specials. Yeah, I’ve traveled as far away as South Africa on assignment and small, medium and large cities in the US I’ve met, you know, just tremendous people from all walks of life, whether they’re VIPs or just average citizens. And doing extraordinary things. And it’s afforded me an opportunity to interview some of the most interesting people in the in the world. I have a weekly public affairs show, the Caught Spotlight on the News, which airs every Sunday morning in this market, It’s sandwiched right after this week with George Stephanopoulos. That airs first and then my show comes right after that and it focuses in on local, state and national issues. It’s the longest running weekly public affairs show in Michigan history. Was started back in 1965. I did not start it. I’m not that old, but I’ve been hosting it since the ’90s. So fortunate enough to be the longest serving host now, but it had hosts before me and so I’m approaching, approaching the latter years of my career. You know, retirement is within sight, but no set date at this point. But I know I’m closer to, closer to the end of my career than the beginning of my career at this point. And, but it’s been a wonderful career and Detroit has been a great base for that career and a wonderful town, a great news town. And yeah, we’ve, and I’ve been very fortunate that Detroiters have embraced me so warmly and that our television station has supported the things that I’ve tried to do throughout the year.

Rainah Ross [01:28:03] Alrighty, so we have a few more questions left in this section and then we have a few sections after this one. So if you want to take a break now, that’s totally fine or if you want to continue, also up to you. But yeah.

Chuck Stokes [01:28:19] No, we could, we could go ahead and we’ll, we’ll just, we’ll just knock it out.

Rainah Ross [01:28:28] If you want to take a break at any point or even like reschedule, that’s totally fine. So just interrupt me and let me know.

Chuck Stokes [01:28:36] Okay. How, how much longer do you think it’ll be that

Rainah Ross [01:28:43] We have about two and a half more pages of questions and we’ve gone through a page and a half so far, so maybe about like two hours.

Chuck Stokes [01:28:56] Oh, okay. It that long? Okay.

Rainah Ross [01:28:58] Yeah. So like if you want to like pick another date to finish some up that.

Chuck Stokes [01:29:02] Yeah, why don’t we, why don’t we do that? Just because I’ve got a few things I need to do before folks get out of their office at five. Let me. Hang on, let me see. What time is it now? Okay. Okay. So yeah, let’s pick a date and then that way I don’t wear you out either. Tell me what your timeline is because we’re going to be going on vacation at the end of this week. You want to try to. Let me see. How soon do you need to get to finish this up? That’s what I need to- Because I’m back. Do you want to- Is it okay if we don’t finish it up this week, but try to finish it up in a week or so? Or does that put you too far?

Rainah Ross [01:30:03] Okay, so we have four more questions in this specific section. And then once we get done with those, we can- I can, you know, send you on your way. So whenever you’re ready, just let me know.

Chuck Stokes [01:30:17] Okay, I’m ready. 

Rainah Ross [01:30:19] Okay. When and why did you move to Michigan?

Chuck Stokes [01:30:24] I moved to Michigan. You know, one second here. Okay. I moved to Michigan. At the time, I was working in Nashville, Tennessee, as a CBS affiliate there. And I was happily working in Nashville, enjoyed the station, enjoyed the job. And I attended a regional conference put on by the national association of Black Journalists, and it was in Atlanta. And I happened to be showing some of the work that I had been doing in Nashville. A colleague of mine, together, we were showing a series of investigative reports that we had been doing. And there was a man conducting the workshop named Burt Medley, who’s now deceased, who used to work for NBC News, and he saw the work, and he had a friend at our tele- at my television station in Detroit who knew that they were looking for someone to fill a position of a special projects producer at the station. And he was impressed with the work that a colleague of mine, Eleanor Hayes, who actually is from Cleveland, we grew up in the same high school, she’s now out of the business. She works for the Cleveland Clinic. But we were both at that time at the television station in Cleveland, I mean, in Nashville. And he recommended me for the job. And so I got a call and they said, hey, Burt Medley said, we should talk to you. That he was really impressed with some of the stuff that you’ve been doing. So I said, well, sure, you know, so I interviewed. And then just one thing led to another. Coincidentally, I had also recently met my future wife, who was working at a television station in Toledo. And I met her at the same regional conference, even though it wasn’t in her region. That’s a whole ’nother story. But she was at the conference, and a mutual friend from college introduced us, and. And she was working in Toledo at the time I was in Nashville. I said, huh? Detroit’s a little closer to, to- I mean, Toledo’s- Detroit’s a little closer to Toledo. And things just- They actually just sort of magically fell into place. The job was a interesting job offer, and they offered me the job. I accepted the job. I also was dating my wife at the time, future wife. And then a few years later, after I moved here and started working at the station, we ended up getting engaged and then ended up getting married in 1983. So things just sort of in place.

Rainah Ross [01:33:34] All righty. There are several journalists in your family. Do you have any insights into why that is?

Chuck Stokes [01:33:41] I have no idea. I have no idea. You know, it wasn’t by design. It wasn’t because I influenced anybody directly to go into journalism, and no one influenced me directly. Yeah, I guess my Uncle Carl would have been the first when he transitioned from being mayor to being an anchor reporter at WNBC in New York. I imagine that probably caught my eye. Certainly was aware of it, but I wasn’t in New York, so I never really saw him on the air. So it wasn’t as though I would turn on the television in the evening and I would see him. I knew that he was doing it, but I wasn’t in that market, so I didn’t really see him. So I can’t say it influenced me from that standpoint. Certainly was proud of the fact that he was breaking ground in journalism as the first African American anchor in the largest television market in the country. But the person that really caught my eye is no longer with us, and that was Ed Bradley of CBS News in 60 Minutes. I just thought he was a superb journalist, cool, calm and collective and great at his craft. And that influenced me and then. But I was really more influenced in college when I was editor of the newspaper, the college newspaper. And that was my real first taste of journalism. And that, that made me think, huh, this might be something I could do for a career. Because I really, at the time when I first got into college, I thought I would be going into law. And later sort of pivoted and changed, but I had never been exposed to journalism. And that was my first real exposure. And then I said, I like this. And then I had a professor who came to me and he said, he said, I know you’re applying to law school. He said, but have you ever thought about applying to graduate school in journalism? And I said, no, I really hadn’t. He said, well, why don’t you do a little homework on it? And so I did and realized that there were some great journalism schools. And so I applied to Northwestern University and Columbia University’s graduate schools and got accepted at both. And then decided, okay, now you gotta have to make a choice. And then both are well respected and top schools. And I think I based my final decision on saying, well, would I rather get in New York or Chicago. And I said, I’ve never lived in New York. Okay, how about New York? So that’s how I basically made my final decision to go on. And then I think once I went to journalism school, that’s where I really started to develop the real training for journalism and learning all the things that as a journalist, you should know in terms of ethics, developing the craft, and pursuing my interest in having a journalism career. And then in terms of my sister Lori, I never remember having a conversation with her suggesting she go into journalism. I think it’s just something that she chose on her own. Maybe, you know, my being in- in journalism and maybe my uncle being in it maybe influenced her. I don’t know. She’d have to speak for herself. And then she has a daughter who’s now at the Fox station in Alex, who’s now at the Fox station in Cleveland, who was in Huntsville. Now, Alex, I have had a lot of conversations with as- as her journalism career has been developing, but- So has. But I’m sure she’s had those conversations with her mom as well as her father, who is with WNBC in New York, Brian Thompson. So. So she really kind of got and has journalism surrounding her from, you know, at least three different vantage points. So she probably really got it. But I don’t know. I- The conversations I’ve had with her have been conversations on her reaching out, as she’s had different journalistic questions and stuff, and as she was trying to decide, you know, where she would start her career and going to Huntsville and, you know, just giving her advice and suggestions and encouraging her. And she’s done- She’s doing a great job, and I think she’ll continue to do well. So it’s- It’s just one of those things. I think my father wanted that a lot, too. He said, what is all this journalism stuff going on? Even though. Because his real love. His love was truly law. And then he developed a love for politics, but his real love was law. And so I think he probably from time to time said, what is all this journalism going on?

Rainah Ross [01:40:02] Okay, our final question today will be how has your father influence the person you are today?

Chuck Stokes [01:40:16] Well, so many different levels. He set great examples for all of us as kids. He was always there when we needed him. He was always there for conversation. If you had a question, he was never too busy to stop and answer your question. He was always involved in our lives. He always made sure that we had a supportive environment around us. He worked hand-in-hand with my mother to make sure that they provided nothing but love in the household for us and all of the tools that we needed to be able to excel, you know, in terms of books and enrichment programs, exposure to things, know things that parents try to do with their kids outside of the day to day schooling, whether it’s music lessons or dance lessons or whatever else he felt me or my sisters needed, he was there. He was, he was a very principled person and he was a very honest person and you knew not to tell him a lie. If you did, you paid the price for doing it. He did not, he did not like people telling him fibs and he carried himself in such a respectful away all the time. And he showed, and he showed that to everybody in the family and he treated everybody the same. Even once we got married, you know, he treated my wife like it was his own daughter. He didn’t play favorites among the kids, he didn’t play favorites among the grandkids. He treated everybody as individuals and he was there for all of us and family was everything to him. He loved the community and he loved working for people. But nothing gave him more satisfaction than knowing his family was there supporting him and vice versa. And you know, there just been countless things that he did to make sure that we grew up the right way, we were exposed to the right people and the right things in life and, and that we carried ourselves with dignity and, and, and he, and he was good at making us realize without being preachy. He would let us know that your reputation is all you have and be true to your reputation. Don’t take it lightly, treat people right and treat people the way you want to be treated. And, and he always told us to make sure you’re there for your family, that family should be the center of everything. His religion was important to him. You know, I, I, he didn’t wear it on his post sleeve like my grandmother. He wasn’t walking around talking about his religion, but he would get on his knees every night and say his prayers before he would get into bed. And I remember that as long as I remember anything from a little boy, up until, you know, up until his, he was almost 90 years old, it was a ritual with them, but it was private, it was quiet. He didn’t draw attention to it. He’d just go do it. He never lost sight of, of his religious upbringing and compass, I think that’s the word I’m looking for. That was, that was his compass in life and he knew that his role was, and he was very proud of his role is my role is to provide for my family. And he worked really, really hard in doing that. I don’t know how he did it. I don’t know how he got all. I don’t know how he got four kids through college. I don’t know how he was able to expose us to all the things he exposed us to him, he and my mother, from a financial standpoint and still, keep it all together, because I know there had to be difficult times and real challenges because he was never independently. You know, he didn’t come from wealth, and, you know, he did. He did well for himself as a career, long range. But, you know, the early part of his career was struggling, just like so many other young African American professionals starting from ground zero. And so he worked hard to. To build a successful life and a successful family. And I think all of us are very, very appreciative of all that he did and all that my uncle did, because they did it- They- They did it in the individually, but they also did it collectively. They were the best of friends. They were the strongest of brothers. They supported each other, you know, and any differences that they had from time to time, the public never knew because they would go in the room and have their discussions when they come out, they’d be united. But I’m sure they didn’t agree lock, stop and barrel on every single issue or every single thing they did in their career. They were proud individuals with brilliant minds. And so I’m sure there were times when they probably, you know, had their- their political and philosophical differences, but for the most part, they were united, and they presented a united team to the world, and they fought together as brothers on behalf of Clevelanders and the state of Michigan, I mean, state of Ohio. And so they- They knew that they were a powerful, historic team, and they didn’t take the responsibility that they have lightly. And so we were just very, very fortunate to have. I was fortunate to have him here for 90 years in the totality of his life. And at that time, it would have been close to 60 years of my life that I had with him. And so I could not have had a better role model and a better father.

Rainah Ross [01:48:55] All right, well, thank you for talking to us. We really appreciate you for participating in our oral history. And yeah, I guess we’ll be talking to you in a few weeks to finish this out. [recording ends; resumes on a later day]

Erich Schnack [01:49:06] You can go ahead and start recording now. All right. My name is Erich Schnack. It is July 27, 2021. Today I am speaking with Chuck Stokes over the phone. Who is in Detroit, Michigan. My tech person is Matthew Woodyard, and we are speaking from the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Well, hello again, Chuck. Thank you for joining us for a second round of interview questions today.

Chuck Stokes [01:49:41] Glad to be with you.

Erich Schnack [01:49:45] So I’d like to continue with this first question here. Describe your father’s career.

Chuck Stokes [01:49:53] Oh, wow. How much time do you have? 

Erich Schnack [01:49:57] For you? Hours on hours.

Chuck Stokes [01:49:59] No, I’ll try to do it in a nutshell version. He started as he always wanted, to be an attorney, and so he pursued being an attorney. And after being a Case Western Reserve for undergrad, he went to Cleveland Marshall Law School. And he did it at night because he was working during the day at a company called Carmack Realty, which was an African American real estate company. And so he did some work for them during the day, and then during the evenings, he was pursuing his law degree and was able to get that. And then he eventually became a criminal defense attorney. Because back in those days, access to the various corporate, large city law firms were not available to African Americans who just coming out of school and coming out of law school. So they had to make ends the best way they could meet. And that was sort of chasing cases there at the various courthouses. And it was one avenue that was open to him, and he did very well and excelled at that. And then not terribly long after he became a lawyer, Carl also became a lawyer. Carl, of course, you know, is a little younger than Dad. And then eventually they both joined a man named Norman Minor, who was an outstanding criminal defense attorney in Cleveland. And dad and Carl both really credit all of their legal expertise and acumen to Norman Minor and all of the things that he taught them about how to conduct yourself in a courtroom and how to study law and pursue law and defend clients and the tricks of the trade. Because in every profession there are, you know, whether you call them tricks or just things that you learn to be better at what you’re doing, they learned those things from Norman Minor. And then as he was in doing very well in his law practice and really building that law practice, because that was truly Dad’s first love. Politics was not Dad’s first love or pursuit. Carl really was the one that absolutely loved politics. And law was almost secondary to Carl. So they were sort of the- the flip flop of each other. But both understood that they had to, you know, make a living and put food on the table for their young families, but that, you know, would often kid later in years. And during the process of being young lawyers, you know, he would kid Carl about, you know, being involved with the politics while they were trying to build a law firm. And I think at one point even, you know, asked him, you know, he’s kind of with a little flare and said, Carl, we’re trying to build a law firm here and you’re busy, have all these political meetings here. And Carl said, look, I paid my half of the rent for this office so I can do what I want on my time here. And so they chuckled about that years later and acknowledged that I guess he can as long as he’s paying his portion of the rent. But eventually worked out where after Carl was mayor and dad had, you know, pursued the Supreme Court case for the 21st Congressional District and won that case, so, you know, the gerrymandering case involved with that, which people can pursue on their own time, it became clear that, okay, that’s going to be a district that will probably now be represented, represented by an African American because of the population and the changing of the district lines. And then the question became, well, who’s going to represent that district? And people thought that Carl would be interested. And then Carl said, well, I’m mayor, I’m not interested in that. I’m in my term as mayor of Cleveland, Ohio, in the first African American made mayor of a major American city. So Carl and others went to dad and asked him to run, which he really wasn’t thinking about. But eventually after thinking about it, he said, okay, he would run. It was a very contested primary, as you can imagine, because it was a wide open seat then and there were a number of blacks and whites running for that, that position. And dad was able to win the primary and then get into the general election facing Lucas as the Republican. And Dad was able to win that seat. And that was in 1969. And then he went and had a 30 year career in the halls of Congress. The wonderful career where he represented his district very well, got a lot of money, federal money, back into Cleveland for all sorts of things. Too many things to enumerate during this interview. And I think people who have written about his career, who are more objective than I would be as a family member, have given him very high marks for his service as a United States Congressman. And he was even, he was even acknowledged by his colleagues in Congress after his 30 years of getting one of their top internal awards for his wonderful service. And it was something that was given by the Democrats and Republicans in the House. And dad always prided himself on being able to work across the political aisle to get things done for the city of Cleveland and the state of Ohio and the nation as a whole. And it really his stature became more than just the Congressman from Cleveland or the Congressman from Ohio, because at that time when they were really forming the Congressional Black Caucus, there were not as many African American congress persons as there are today. And so African Americans across the nation look to this small group of African American leaders as their leaders. And so they oftentimes were going on fact finding missions in other cities and other states because of their national stature. And so he was oftentimes fighting for healthcare initiatives and other things that were his passion for the entire nation. So he had a wonderful career, and after 30 years, he decided it was time to leave Congress and go back to what he originally, you know, pursued and was his first choice as a profession, and that was law. And he joined the Squires law firm there in Cleveland, of course, you know, a very outstanding law firm and one in which, at the time when he first started practicing, there would be no way he could have been a member of that firm because of his color. Things, of course, have changed through the years, and I think that gave him great pride to know that he could join one of the top law firms in the nation after all of these years and after all the things that he did. And he very much enjoyed that and helping the young lawyers there, mentor them. They started a scholars program. And he worked very closely with the young lawyers that Squires brought into the firm, as well as their various mentorship programs throughout Cleveland, trying to get young people from high school to pursue law as a profession. And he worked very closely with the Cleveland Bar Association as well as the Norman Minor Black Bar Association. So all in all, he had a wonderful career. And he documented all of that in his book, the Gentleman from Ohio, which was published right after his death. He was fortunate enough, before he succumbed to cancer, to be able to see the final manuscript that he co-wrote with David Chernoff. And he was able to learn that Ohio University Press would publish the book. So he never actually saw the book in his hands as a finished product with the cover design and all of that, but he was able to complete the book and the manuscript and sign off on it. And he and David said, okay, it’s done. And then we were able to tell him that Ohio University was going to publish it. And that gave him just great satisfaction to know that he had not spent all of that time writing about his life and no one would ever know it but the family. So you can pick it up on you know, eBay and Amazon and bookstores. And hopefully people who are interested in his career will give that a read because it gives a good capsule of what his entire life was about.

Erich Schnack [02:00:36] I’m happy that you mentioned A Gentleman from Ohio. We actually just purchased that book, so we will be all reading that one shortly.

Chuck Stokes [02:00:44] Oh, great, great. All right. One more sale. That’s great. 

Erich Schnack [02:00:50] Yeah. So you mentioned Norman Minor as somebody that your father looked up to in his time in law. Was there anybody that he admired, particularly in public politics, as he entered the 21st congressional district or onward in his political career?

Chuck Stokes [02:01:07] Oh, I think there were. I think there were a number of people, you know, at the- at that time, as I said, the caucus was much smaller. He came into Congress. When he came in, he came in with two others. He came in with Shirley Chisholm from New York and Congressman William Bill Clay from St. Louis, Missouri. And Bill Clay and dad served their entire time in Congress together. Shirley Chisholm was not there as long as the two of them, but they came in together as the three of them, and that set a new high for the number of African Americans in Congress. And they worked with those members who were African American members who are already there to form the Congressional Black Caucus and those who were there before them. I’m sure I’m going to miss a few names, but certainly John Conyers, who represented Detroit’s district, was there when dad got there, and John Conyers was there when dad left. And of course, he died a few years ago, but spent his entire career in Congress and was the longest serving African American member on Capitol Hill. Charlie Diggs, who also is from Detroit, was there when dad got there. I think Nix from Philadelphia, I think Gus from Los Angeles was there. Gus Hawkins was there when they got there. And I’m missing a couple, but probably one or two others. But Adam Clayton Powell was there, who of course, you know, has national fame and was very accomplished, but also controversial. So he learned from all of them and I think admired all of them. Had great stories to tell about all of them. And so those were kind of role models. Of course, the person that he was closest to in politics was Carl. His brother Carl, with eat, sleep, and live politics. He knew all the intricacies of it. And that was, as I mentioned earlier, with his real passion and his real love. And so while dad had the wonderful intelligence and augment to learn quickly, he. He didn’t really know all the nuances of politics when he first went in. And the strategy that goes into political wins and. And how to maneuver things and how to work across the aisle with people of those things. But Carl had been in the state legislature before he became elected mayor of Cleveland. So Carl understood both the legislative political environment as well as the executive branch. And so I think he was able to translate what he had learned in a smaller venue in the Ohio legislature to help dad in a larger venue with 400-some-odd members of Congress in Washington, that there were a lot of similarities, Even though people were from all over the country versus all over the state. You know, politics is politics. And so they would. They would sit hours upon hours talking with each other, and they were always in contact. Even though dad was in Washington, Carl was in Cleveland. And of course, dad went back and forth all the time because most weekends he would go back into Cleveland to be in his district for, you know, all sorts of business meetings and community functions. That’s just the life of a member of Congress on the road a lot. But they would have dinners together and breakfasts and, you know, talk on the phone constantly until Carl left being mayor and went on to New York to be involved in the broadcast television world. And even then, they would still talk and strategize on the phone. He would call Carl for advice, and, you know, Carl would call him up if he received things. So they would still talk. But. But that- So throughout Dad’s 30 years in Congress, he was constantly talking with Carl. And then, of course, Carl would put him in touch with others. And then people like George Forbes. You know, dad had a close relationship with George, even though, ironically, a lot of people probably forget that when dad first ran for Congress in that primary, was George Forbes as one of many people that were trying to get that congressional seat. But they- They never let that, that race affect the entirety of their career. After that race, they shook hands, and George was one of the first people to call and congratulate him. And they built a wonderful relationship after that. And he did that with so many others. And then the other person was Charlie Vanik, who- Charlie Vanik was the congressman in that seat before Dad. And Charlie mentored Dad a lot and helped introduce him to many of the members of Congress who were already there, particularly some of the white members of Congress who dad did not know, who, you know, people like John Dingell, who already there from Michigan and others across the nation. So there are just a number of people that were helpful to him when he was there in Congress. And dad, as you know, was a very collegial type of person, easy to get along with loved, just loved people. And so he was used to, because of his law work, working with people from all sorts of political persuasions. And so I don’t think that was a big jump for him. And then I think his, the title of his book really accurately reflects the type of person he was. The Gentleman from Ohio is appropriate because most people, when they describe my father, they describe him as a real gentleman. I can’t tell you the number of times as a kid growing up and, you know, we would, you know, stop in and see dad at the office or maybe if I was down in that area, D.C., or had to meet him down there or something, and he’d introduce me to maybe one of his colleagues. So often what would come out of their mouth is the first glance. Oh, nice to meet you. Love your dad. Your dad is a real gentleman. And that was from Democrats, Republicans, and independents.

Erich Schnack [02:08:43] So your father was really inspired by this love of people. It also seemed like he got a lot of inspiration and a means to get going from his brother. What else in your perspective inspired him to push forward throughout his long career?

Chuck Stokes [02:09:03] I think he was always motivated by trying to make life better for the average citizen. Having come up out of poverty because my Dad and Carl came up out of the projects in Cleveland, they had to struggle to make ends meet. You know, at one point in their life, my dad, my uncle and my grandmother, they were on welfare. So they knew what it was like to, you know, take their little buggies and go get the welfare cheese and other items that you would get. They, they never liked being on welfare. It wasn’t for a long, long period of time, but there were, you know, a little bit of time there, year, a year or two, not sure exactly how long in which they needed to be on welfare while my grandmother, as a domestic worker, was trying to keep everything together. My grandmother only had an 8th grade education, but, you know, had the, knowledge and the survival skills of someone who had a PhD. So they had to do what they had to do to, you know, take care of themselves during those years. So he understood what it was like to be poor and not have materialistic things the way many Americans did. And so the one thing that I’m proud of, both my dad and my uncle is that they never lost touch with the common man and woman. No, no matter, you know, where their careers took them. And it took them to some extraordinary places all around the world. And they met kings and queens and presidents of various countries, very influential people. While they appreciated all of that and they enjoyed all of that. They never, ever got their big heads and never got to the point where they forgot from which they came. And they were very good at always staying in touch with their districts, with their state, and with minorities. While they fought for everyone, they kept particular passion for making sure that minorities were represented in every way they could fight for their existence. Whether it was in committee meetings in Congress, when he was questioning people that would come before the various committees, dad said he was always mindful of, okay, you’re asking for X number of millions of dollars, federal dollars, for whatever it is your- you’ve come before this committee for today. Tell us how many people of color are represented in whatever business you’re in or whatever organization or the grants that you’re seeking. Do you have a set aside there for- for the number of interns and other minorities that you’re going to be bringing in? He was always mindful of those types of things, and he always felt like that was his position and that’s why he was there. And if he lost sight of that, then there would be no sense of him being there. And even writes in his book about how he knew that some of his colleagues probably rolled their eyes when it came time for him to question people because they knew where he was going to be going with his questioning. But he also, at the end, they showed tremendous respect for him because he never got up there. And all of a sudden I’m forgetting about the people that I used to walk the streets with and that I used to live in the poorer neighborhoods with. So I think he was always motivated by that. I think healthcare was one of his real passions in Congress because he wanted people to be able to have access to quality health care, no matter where you live and no matter what your income was. So I think those were the things that really motivated him as well as Carl, you know, fighting for housing and health care and access to all of the, all of the different facilities, especially those facilities that received federal funds.

Erich Schnack [02:14:13] So you mentioned he was very committed to health care. He was committed to civil rights throughout his entire career. Were there any particular issues that he changed his views on over time?

Chuck Stokes [02:14:29] Oh, I’m sure there were. I’m trying to think. I’m trying to think of. Anything particular just jumps right out at me. I’ll probably think of something in a minute. I’m sure the answer to that question is yes, because while there are some things that he was absolutely committed to and didn’t waver on, he also realized that times change, people change, communities change. Nations change and circumstances force change and you have to be flexible to be able to be relevant and be in sync with the times. And so I’m sure there are probably positions that he maybe took as a young congressman that by the time he was about to retire from Congress 30 some odd years later, he had a new perspective on and maybe changed. You know, I know he would talk to, you know, he fought a lot for busing, school busing and making sure that, you know, kids could have equal access to education. And I know that was an issue that he oftentimes ended up in debates with other African Americans in Cleveland about. I remember, you know, sometimes he would even take on, you know, different. I think- I think if memory serves me right, it gets a little foggy after all, all these years that my dad and Mike White might have even been on different sides at one point on this particular issue, even though they had a very close relationship when Mike White was mayor of Cleveland and a very, you know, successful mayor of Cleveland. And so from time to time he would take on even people he respected greatly and that he had great friendships with. He, Dad was guided by principle and policy and what was best in his mind for the average person. And he was not the type of person who would cut a political deal that may have benefited himself but not others just for his own self interest. That was the furthest thing from his mind. And he would consider, he felt like that would be selling out, that his obligation was to the larger society and to people. And if that meant sometimes you’d have to take unpopular positions even when they weren’t smart political positions in terms of, of just own community politics and may put you at odds with another politician, then he would be willing to take that stand. He would always say that you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, did you do the right thing? And he never wanted to walk down the street and see the average person and have to turn his head or embarrassment for a position that he took that didn’t truly represent the largest society of people. And so he was always willing to do that. And then one thing that we probably didn’t talk about, probably should, that’s probably very close to the work that you do on a day to day basis is Dad and Uncle Carl’s commitment to the environment which has become such a big issue now. It was, you know, at different times throughout our society it’s become a hot issue. But even more so now when you talk about, you know, the debate over, you know, climate change. And all of these issues that have become very partisan issues. You know, shortly after Carl became mayor, you called the Cuyahoga River caught on fire. And that was a tremendous embarrassment to the city of Cleveland and to the state of Ohio and to the nation. And it caught national attention, was all on all of the evening broadcasts back then, and became, you know, a stereotype of Cleveland that embarrassed Clevelanders that their river body of water was so dirty that it would catch on fire. And- And so Carl really was into the environment. He really wanted to change that and make that one of the pillars of his administration. But he needed help getting the funds. And so dad and Carl worked hand in glove to Carl from the local position there in Cleveland and Ohio, and dad from the halls of Congress. And Carl even came up to Washington. Dad helped him get before committees to be able to testify. And Carl did it both in his role as mayor, but also as a member of the National League of Cities and the other mayoral type of organizations that Carl was involved in. National, because Carl had national stature as the first African American mayor of a major American city, because he and Dick Hatcher took office to catch her over in Indiana, Gary Indiana. They came in at the same time, same year. But Carl got a little more publicity because he got sworn in as mayor before Dick Hatcher did, and so ended up on more of the Time, the Newsweek covers. But they both came in at the same year. So that historical note should never be be forgotten. And I remember Carl came to dad and said, Lou, I need your help to getting some money to help clean up these cities and in these rivers and all this stuff. And so dad, as a young congressman, went to some of his colleagues there, people like Ed Muskie of Maine, who chaired that. The environmental committees on the Senate side, and asked them, how do you get these type of things done? And one of his colleagues, I’m not sure exactly who, told him that the Army Corps of Engineers would probably do a lot, at least investigate and study and undertake some of these measures. But they needed to address flood control issues and quality, quality of life on the Cuyahoga River, because Dad gave a speech in which he was quoted nationally, in which he compared the Cuyahoga River, you know, said that it would go down in infamy as the only river in the world to be proclaimed as a fire hazard. And I think even used in his words something to the effect of the rape of the Cuyahoga has not only made it useless for any purpose other than dumping place for sewage and industrial waste, but also as a deleterious effect upon the ecology of one of the Great Lakes. And so that received a lot of attention. And then that sort of ushered in the modern environmental movement because it had begun. And there were people like John Dingell here in Michigan, who was a big environmental person that worked hard on the 1972 Clean Water Act and many other initiatives. And so they all worked together to be able to get these important environmental hallmark legislation done to sort of lead that fight in cleaning up our environment and taking advantage of it and so that it would no longer be called the mistake on the lake and wouldn’t get the actually international negative attention that the river catching on fire received at that time. But they did it for the parks, they did it for. For all sorts of environmental causes trying to clean up things and make sure that that became. And we set a national policy on how we would take care of our beautiful environment and treasure, you know, this gift that had been given to all of all of the world by someone much higher power than all of us recognize on a day-to-day basis. So that was something that I think dad and Carl were both very, very proud of. And it was kind of ironic because I wouldn’t say dad was a. That was not, you know, a tree hugger by any stretch of imagination. I don’t ever remember him picking up a shovel and gardening. He was not, you know, someone who would go hiking or, you know, if he rode a bike. It was just with us as kids, maybe around the neighborhood a little bit. But- But even though now Carl was very much of the- Carl’s quite a gardener. And Carl was really into, you know, flowers and gardening and, and all sorts of outdoor slings. So he was much more of an outdoors person than Dad was. But they both, whether they were personally passionate about, about using these. The environment themselves, they both understood that it was important and that they wanted that to pursue environmental causes that benefited those who were very much into the environment and wanted to be able to have it as an asset for our nation. And so that was very, very important to the both of them.

Erich Schnack [02:24:59] I’m so glad that you brought up the environment. You gave us a good segue into lots of our environment questions. We have written down here your father, you know, it’s interesting that you mentioned the congressional hearings that he attended in which he said that that famous quote, at one of the congressional hearings in 1974, he was one of the first people to testify in favor of establishing our national park here in the Cuyahoga Valley. So that’s very excellent. Just to rewind a little bit on your life and how you spent it with your family and your father in the environment. I’d like to ask you, how did you experience nature as a child?

Chuck Stokes [02:25:51] Mainly through my grandmother, because my grandmother, my father’s mother on my father’s side was quite a gardener and she loved being out in the garden. You know, her day to day work was tedious work, taking care of the homes of wealthy Clevelanders. But when she would get home and she’d get out of her, you know, a little work, the dress and outfit, she would put on, you know, her old gardening shoes and stuff and she would get out there and she would drag us out there. So, and it wasn’t a question, do you want to come help in the garden? It was a Chucky, come, come help. And so I learned, learned and I, I really enjoy gardening. And so. And I’m sure that’s something that I developed from her because dad was never out in the garden with us, trust me. He would maybe come out and look and say, oh, that’s really pretty. But that would be the extent of his gardening. But I think my uncle Carl picked up love from gardening from my grandmother who, you know, was born and raised in South in a little place called Wrens, Georgia, which is spelled W, R, E, N, S, which is not too far from, the closest big city would be Augusta, Georgia. But she left there at a relatively young age. But, you know, she did sharecropping when she was a very young person before migrating to the north into Cleveland. So it was in, in the blood, so to speak, and in the DNA. She knew what, you know, what the ground could produce and what it would do. She was a fabulous cook. And so she would grow, you know, whatever she was able to plant. And then she did, you know, canning and other stuff like that. And, and they were very much into, you know, nature. You know, I know we used to have a plum tree in the backyard and grapes, grapevines and other stuff. And so anything that she could grow, she would, and she’d use it. She was really into rose bushes. I’m not into rose bushes. I don’t like getting pricked. But she had beautiful rose bushes. And I think because I probably playing, playing sports and stuff in the backyard, I probably ran into a couple of those rose bushes and cut and got scraped. And that’s probably why I think they’re pretty, but I’m not willing to go fool with them. But she was very much into that. She would help out an awful lot. And then my grandmother on my mother’s side, we called her Nana. She was also into, you know, the outside and, you know, gardening and taking care of the home and bushes. And whenever she would come visit, it got to be kind of a running joke. Especially when we moved to. We moved to Washington, D.C., by that time area, and she still lived. She lived her entire life in Cleveland, majority of her life in Cleveland. And- But whenever she would come visit, my mother would always say, okay, you know, Nana’s coming to visit. Oh, Lord, that means. That means I gotta get out the yard. She’d say, yep. Because she would come, she would look, and she’d say, okay, these hedges need shaping up. We need to take. We need to take this particular little bush up because it’s dying and put a new one in and Chucky come out here and help. So. So we would laugh about that. So I really learned from both of them about, you know, trying to take care of your property and enjoy just nature. So that’s probably the person that I developed the environmental kind of love from more than anything.

Erich Schnack [02:30:08] Now, from our last interview, was this the same grandmother that would have you sneak in her room late at night to watch tv?

Chuck Stokes [02:30:16] Yes, yes.

Erich Schnack [02:30:18] She sounds like a fabulous woman. Thank you for sharing that.

Chuck Stokes [02:30:23] Yeah, she was. And she lived with us for. For a good portion of time. And so that’s why, you know, we were so close to her, because we would see her on a daily basis and. And she was right there with us. But I was fortunate to have, you know, wonderful grandmothers. And because- Because my parents got divorced at a very young age - I was only like around 5 years old, and both sets got remarried - I ended up with basically four grandmothers. And I never knew any of my grandfathers. All the grandfathers were deceased by the time that I was born. But I had lots of grandmothers. And so- So I learned something from all of them. All of them were fabulous cooks. And, you know, like, one grandmother on my mother’s side is the one I really learned how to do all of the canning from, because she was really into canning and showed me how to make chow chow and stuff like that. And, you know, I call her up for advice and she would do that. So. So you pick up little things from each one of them and just kind of make the most of it. In today’s society, even though things have changed greatly back then, you know, there wasn’t nearly as much frozen stuff up and preserved stuff, so they did so much from natural, you know, I Was even telling my wife, not too long ago, we were talking about. Somehow we gave, came around talking about the, about ambrosia, which you may know is a kind of a dessert where you have lots of fruits and coconut in it, and you mix it all up and it’s really good. And I was telling you how I just have this vivid memory of my grandmother. You know, we go to the store now, if you want some coconut, bagged coconut, you go buy a bag of coconut that’s already grated and, you know, you bring it home. Well, I remember- I don’t ever remember my grandmother buying a bag of coconut. I remember her taking the coconut and taking this little sharp instrument that she used to have and poking the three holes in the top and then draining the milk out of the coconut and then sitting on her little stew, cracking the coconut and then getting the coconut out, and then literally sitting there with her, with her grater, grating the coconut, you know, and it was going to- And I said, man, if times change, like, who in the world is sitting now grating coconut? Like, who, who has that kind of time and stuff? But back then, you know, it’s- It’s- It’s what they did. They were much more into fresh fruits and vegetables and everything.

Erich Schnack [02:33:27] It doesn’t get better than that. Taking it slow and getting it straight from the coconut. I’m sure it- I’m sure it tasted a lot better than it does now.

Chuck Stokes [02:33:37] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I’m sure it did, too.

Erich Schnack [02:33:41] So you mentioned that you weren’t fond of getting pricked by rose bushes, but did you have any favorite things that you liked to do outside when you were young or even now?

Chuck Stokes [02:33:55] Well, you know, I was- I was- I was a young guy, so I was really into sports, you know, and growing up in the neighborhood that we grew up in with Shaker, there were tons of kids. And so we were just a block away from the playground that we went to elementary school at. And then- And so we were every chance we could get, especially during the summertime when we were out of school for the summer. We couldn’t wait to get the guys together. And if we weren’t in someone’s particular backyard, then we would up at the schoolyard. And we were playing basketball and football and doing all those outdoor things, riding our bikes. [02:34:41] And, you know, we- We laugh about that with my daughters who, you know, are grown now, you know, the late 20s, early 30s, that we didn’t have video games and all of those technological things that kids have today to entertain themselves. Our form of entertainment Was getting out of the house as quick as we could after having breakfast. And we wouldn’t come back home till the street lights were on. And that was the rule of thumb. You know, don’t venture too far from the neighborhood. Stay within the immediate neighborhood. Meaning, you know, four or five streets, right around us in the playground. And make sure that you’re back home by the time those street lights came on. And if you weren’t, you were in trouble. And everybody knew everybody. So all the adults in the neighborhood were basically your parents. Because they saw you doing something you weren’t supposed to, they didn’t hesitate to tell you about it. And you knew you better fall back in line because by the time you got home, they had already called your house. And it wasn’t, you know, back in those days, it was- The parents were all together and the kids were all together. And- And no parent was wrong. So you didn’t dare come in the house and say, Mr. and Mrs. Such and Such isn’t telling the truth. That would get you in more trouble than anything. Because as far as they were concerned, no. If a parent said it or the teacher said it, then it had to be the gospel. So, you know, you’re in trouble. And you didn’t want someone else’s parent to call your house and say they saw Chucky doing this or that and the other. Because you were going to be in big trouble by the time you got home. So it was a different kind of a world and society then. But we, we, you know, our exercise was playing. We were outside. We didn’t want to be cooped up in a house and that. That was punishment back then for. For parents to say to you, you can’t go outside and play today. That was the absolute worst. Because all you could do is look out the window at everybody else playing. And you just said, man, whatever I did, I’m not going to do it again because tomorrow be out there. And it was- And it was- It was bad among your peers because they were like, well, where’s Chucky? Chucky can’t come out today. He’s grounded today. And then everybody in the neighborhood knew you did something you weren’t supposed to do because you couldn’t come up today. So that was, I think, the real difference. But we had wonderful childhoods. And between the grandparents making you do stuff outside. And you had chores that you had to do too, to earn your allowance. And so that was a big thing too, that if you wanted a little spending money to go up to the store to get the different type of candies and stuff that you wanted to get. You know, you had to cut the grass or help cut the grass or do other items that Mom or Dad would say, you need to do your chores before you can go out and play. And that would be your motivation. And they understand, they knew that you wanted to play. So it’s like, okay, get your chores done and then you can go do what you have to do. So we all did that and it was just a, just a fun time. And we’ve hopefully translated some of those things to our kids who have grown up to be, you know, terrific young ladies. In my case, I have daughters. And you know, you pass those type of habits down. Even though times change, societies change, values change, you still want to them to have those core values that hopefully will guide them. You know, you’re. When we were just talking about before we start the interview about my wife and I just getting back, you know, everybody’s been cooped up with all of the pandemic stuff. And so we really had not left the state of Michigan since it all began, other than quick little trips over to Cleveland, you know, to see my mom and a couple other relatives to make sure everybody was doing okay. We had not left Michigan. And finally, you know, we were all vaccinated up and we said, okay, we gotta get out of here this beautiful summer. So we said, let’s just do something that embraces nature. And so we went to a place called Massanutton, Virginia. We had not heard of it and we’re familiar with it, but we have some timeshare and they, one of the timeshare guides suggested it. When they asked us what we wanted to do, we said we want some place that’s drivable, a reasonable drive. And we want something that’s sort of embracing nature. And we want one someplace that’s so outdoors and open. And so the guy said, have you ever heard of a place called Massanutten, in Virginia? And I said no. I said, how do you pronounce it? And she said mass and nothing. So we had to go look it up. And it was a four season resort, not what I, I would say, more rustic than it was plush. And it had all sorts of activities. In the winter they have skiing on the mountain and during the summer it’s golf and biking and fishing and hiking. You name it and it’s a great area. Condos. The area we stayed in were nice condos. It’s huge. It’s- It’s like 5,500 acres in the Shenandoah Valley. So you’ll be familiar with that, with having the Cuyahoga Valley. And it’s just beautiful. And there are wineries, you know, very nearby. And even within the little subdivision area that we were living in for that week, they have wonderful little signs just when you walk in the area about all of the things and the animals that were in the area. Like, one chart would have the different birds, so what you would probably see, and the different, you know, they. You know, they had coyotes, foxes and bears, you know, whatever. And so it would tell you, you know, what you might see, but also how to respect their environment, because they were there before we built all this stuff up in their area. And so they were telling you to be very respectful. When we went one evening up on the mountain to. They have a grill up there, an outdoor grill where people could eat outside. And, you know, they were, you know, making hamburgers and hot dogs and whatever else. And you look up on the mountain, which in the wintertime is a slope there on the skiing, so you can see the ski lift up there. But just, you know, 100, 200 feet from where you are, you look up and it’s just, you know, a herd of deer. They’re not bothering us. We’re not bothering them. Everybody’s respectful. And it was just- It was just nice to see it, you know, and so it was just a great way to sort of unwind from the pandemic and still be able to appreciate the beauty of our country in a safe and friendly environment.

Erich Schnack [02:42:27] That just sounds like a fantastic trip. I’m so happy that you were able to go down Shenandoah, you said, right?

Chuck Stokes [02:42:34] Yeah, it was down Shenandoah Valley, not too far from the Skyline Drive and Luray Caverns and that whole area there. It’s sort of- It’s about- We were, say, about an hour and 15 minutes from Charlottesville, not too far from Richmond. We didn’t go to Richmond. We were maybe an hour over hour from Appomattox. So a lot of historical sites, because we went down to Monticello and did a tour there one day, and that was very interesting. And we went to Appomattox and spent some time with a friend who actually lives there. So they took us to a lot of the historic sites there, Civil War historic sites. And then we. There’s just a zillion wineries, so we only managed to get to three of the many, but they were really nice. And then there’s it, the closest city. It’s only the resort is only ten miles, about two miles from city called Harrisonburg. And it was, it was actually much larger city than we realized. I think my wife said population there was about 130,000, something like that. And so they have a nice downtown. They have every store you can imagine on the main strip there. And I’m not talking like little stores. We couldn’t, we were trying to find a store that they didn’t have and we couldn’t successfully do it. I mean, whether it’s, you know, from Walmart to, to IHOP to, you know, Panera Bread, whatever you could think of, they had. It was just a zillion as well of the big name stores that are everywhere that in your, you know, popular strip malls. But then they also had stores and shops and eating places we had not heard of yet that were new and different or more in line with their particular region. But I mean, you could have shopped until you dropped. And that was only ten miles away from the very rustic mountain resort that we were in. So you had a little bit of- If you wanted to feel like you’re back in the city with lots of places to eat and go, you could do that as well as, you know, just stay on the resort and do everything within the mountains there. They had a very historic kind of downtown with lots of, you know, different museums and shops and stuff. So it was a really wonderful area that we just were not familiar with, but very pretty because it’s, you know, just mountains everywhere you could look. 

Erich Schnack [02:45:48] So, kind of tying it back to your childhood with parks. You know, you just recently visited Shenandoah where what memories do you have of visiting parks with your family when you were younger and your father?

Chuck Stokes [02:46:01] Probably the one that stands out the most is when we were kids, there’s two that stand out. When we were kids, we would always go on summer vacation. Almost every summer I can remember, mom and dad would pile us in the car. He didn’t fly back in those days. And you would drive somewhere and they would try to pick a different place every summer. So we weren’t going to the exact same place every summer. And their philosophy was the more we can expose them to, the more educated they will be and the more they’ll appreciate this beautiful country that we have. And I was probably about 10, 11, 12 somewhere in that neighborhood, maybe a tad younger, but I think about them because I remember it pretty well. So I couldn’t, couldn’t have been too young. And we went to- Dad had to go to a legal conference at the Greenbrier in West Virginia. And so he said, well, we might as well turn this into a family vacation because here it’s a beautiful place. So during the day, so we drove there from Cleveland and it was beautiful. And that, of course, is down. You know, we went on Skyline Drive and we went to the Luray Caverns and we did the Skyline Drive and the beautiful thing. And we drove up to the Greenbrier up in West Virginia, which is just, you know, beautiful five star resort. And so during the day he- And we went with another friend of family who also met us there, attorney friend of his named Jay White. And there were other attorneys that were there that that was affiliated with. So during the day they would go to whatever conference and legal meetings they have to go and the kids could have the run of the resort and play and stuff. But he also weaved it into a lot of sightseeing in that general area as we were coming and leaving the place. It was the first time I had gone to a cavern. And so I remember the Luray Caverns very, very vividly and how much fun it was because my wife and I talked about trying to do it this time. And then we said, I don’t know what the pandemic- I’m not sure being inside of a cave is exactly where I want to be right now.

Erich Schnack [02:48:43] You want to be out there in the Shenandoah Valley-

Chuck Stokes [02:48:49] Running through that cave. So I said, we’re vaccinated that, we said, we’ll take a pass on that one. But- But I remember doing that and we had a lot of fun. And I haven’t gotten back to the Greenbrier since. I’ve known people who’ve gotten there and I’ve. A matter of fact, I worked with a guy who recently went, oh, probably right before the pandemic hit. He had to go there on some kind of business assignment. And he asked me, he said, you ever hear a place called Greenbrier? And I said, oh yeah, it’s beautiful. When he came back, he said, you’re right, it is beautiful. And I said, yeah. I said, I’ve been there since I was a kid. I said, and my wife hasn’t been. Yes. I said, one day we’re gonna, we’re going to get there. So that’s the. Probably the trip that I remember the most. That where we just really enjoyed, you know, the Park Service and all the nature kind of offered from that is as kids. And then, then of course, with one summer, the summer of the March on Washington that Dr. Martin Luther King gave his great I Have a Dream speech, which, by the way, was first delivered in Detroit, not in Washington, D.C., and tested it out here a couple months before taking it to D.C. our little historical Detroit note. But that same summer, dad, you know, because he was so active in civil rights and the NAACP and all sorts of things that he did alongside of his legal practice, picked up the whole family and we drove to Washington to be part of the march. And as kids, we didn’t actually march in the march and stuff because that felt that might be a little much for little kids. But he marched and we were all there. And we’ve got some old film of us in D.C. you know, because he used to take his little. Those little film cameras he used to have back then, and he used to tape, you know, movies. And we would do that. And so on that trip we did a lot of the, you know, Lincoln Monument and some of the others, national historic sites on the National Park Service had to offer. And so that was a fun trip as well. So. So we did that in a lot of different places.

Erich Schnack [02:51:24] Were there any special outdoor activities that you and your family did together often?

Chuck Stokes [02:51:33] We did a lot of outdoor activities. We didn’t do, do camping and stuff like that as a lot of families did. I don’t recall us ever doing that. Probably the closest thing that came to it is that they were big on having us go to camp. We didn’t go every summer, but the YMCA had a camp that was on the outskirts of Cleveland. And I can’t remember exactly where it was as a kid, but I remember going to that summer and dad packing us all up and getting all of our little stuff. And we went and they dropped us off at the camp and they left us there. I’m guessing it wasn’t. I don’t think it wasn’t all summer long, but I think it was maybe a week or two. I can’t remember exactly how long. And. And I remember doing that. And that was a lot of fun. And I’m pretty. I’m pretty sure, you know, things get foggy when you, when you get 60, almost 67. And that was a little kid, but I’m pretty sure I think that was a YMCA sponsored camp. And it was- And it was, it was fun. It was- It was, you know, very much embracing nature and all the outdoor things. You have, you know, roasted marshmallows at night, those types of things. And that was a lot of fun.

Erich Schnack [02:53:03] Did you ever come out to the Cuyahoga Valley before it was the Cuyahoga Valley with your father at all?

Chuck Stokes [02:53:11] I don’t recall, Erich, that we did. I- I don’t- I don’t remember us doing so. I remember us taking scenic drives. You know, they would pack us in the car on some Sundays and we would go, because I remember we would. I remember him taking us to the airport one time, and we were out there, you know, and that was a day when you could almost walk up to the planes. None of the security stuff we have now. And that was just. That was like a popular outing when we were a kid. You know, you’d go and go out to the airport and you look out the window at the planes and stuff like that, and that was fun. But they used to. My mother has always loved nature. I mean, she is a big nature person and she’s a wonderful artist. And she used to draw and paint pictures of nature, especially, like, birds and stuff. She would. She was- You know, she would draw and paint pictures. Pictures of birds and stuff. She loved cardinals and blue jays and stuff like that. And, you know, oftentimes throughout the years, we, we, as well as grandkids, we give her little gifts that, you know, maybe have birds and stuff on it because she was really into nature and. And just appreciated the beauty. And so we would. They would pack us in the car and we would go on just like Sunday drives. And so I would imagine that at some point we were probably. If some of that probably was through the Shenandoah. I mean, through the Cuyahoga Valley. But as a kid, you know, you are. You’re just taking in the beauty and you don’t know what road you’re on. You know, the parents were. The parents were driving, and you’re just in the back seat, you know, taking it all in and then get out and do whatever little scenic things we were- But I know we have some- You know, through the years, I’ve seen pictures of us as kids with our parents, you know, in scenic looking areas, at the scenic over overpasses and places like that that were, you know, just filled with nature. Because we laugh about the fact that my sister and I were laughing not terribly long ago on the drive up to the Greenbrier part of it. We left during the day, but I think we left later in the day than we had originally planned. And by the time we were going up the mountains, it was dark, so it was night. And some big bird hit the windshield off the car, and it sounded like. It sounded like a bomb going off and scared us. Luckily, it did not crack the windshield and. Didn’t break the windshield or anything, but it’s hurt. But it, you know, startled everybody, I think, particularly my father, who was driving at the time. But we’re lucky it didn’t come in because, you know, back in those days, you didn’t have air conditioning in the car and stuff. Yeah, the windows were probably cracked or down or something like that. And at that time, my dad was smoking. He finally gave that up, but. So he was probably, you know, putting the, putting the cigarette out at some point, sticking the ashes out, but. But thankfully, he broke that habit. 

Erich Schnack [02:56:40] That’s a funny story. Yeah. 

Chuck Stokes [02:56:43] Yep. Yep. So. But yeah, we used to always have two jobs, and then my mom and my dad before my dad passed, they would love. Even if we became grown kids and we, you know, we’re off to college or, you know, in our various cities building our careers, they love nothing more than getting in the car. And they would- We always laugh, especially the grandkids, about all the. All the little food items they would have in the car to munch on. You know, they had. They used to love taking trips with my parents, just the grandkids and parents not with us. You know, they would give us all call a break and say, hey, you know, drop the kids off and, you know, for a week or a week or two, and they’re gonna stay with us. And then you come back and get them whenever you come back and get them. Or we would maybe meet them in Cleveland. Sometimes we take them to D.C. or fly them up to D.C. and they would, you know, meet them at the airport. And then sometimes they would fly them back from D.C. or they would drive from D.C. to Cleveland. And we’d just had to go to Cleveland and pick them up in Cleveland. But they would do all sorts of. So they are probably really great stories about all the things that they did with them as grandkids. And they would take them. Oh, I tell you, the place they took them to, which actually made us go to it ourselves afterwards. But the first time the kids went or was with my parents. The place in Pennsylvania, Nemacolin. 

ES [02:58:21] Oh, that rings the bell. 

CS [02:58:23] Yeah, yeah. Nemacolin is a resort in Pennsylvania. Okay. Near the West- Near the West Virginia line. We aren’t. It’s technically in West Virginia. I mean, technically in Pennsylvania, but it’s close to West Virginia. Beautiful place. It’s- It’s a lot like the mass of nothing that we just went to a beautiful resort. Matter of fact, it was just- We- We were laughing because it was the backdrop for the Bachelor that was recently. That was recently on television. And because we saw it beginning and we’re like, where? And when we saw in the thing, my wife said, oh, my gosh. She said, they shot this at Nemacolin. And so we’re laughing, said, oh, my God, this is crazy. But the kids went there with my parents, and then they went other places, scenic places, because my mother was really good at finding these, you know, nice, nice kind of outdoorsy resort areas that were family friendly, that they could do lots of stuff with the grandkids, things that the kids would like because they knew that the kids didn’t want to just go to some fancy hotel that wasn’t kid friendly. So they- She was really good at looking for where places where they could, you know, do all sorts of outdoors activities or just appreciate nature. So they packed the kids up and they put heir various items, eatery, eating items. You know, they would, you know, popcorn and cookies and candies, you know- 

Erich Schnack [03:00:10] All the essentials, right? 

Chuck Stokes [03:00:12] Pop this trunk. You would think you were in a grocery store. And they would say, oh, it’s more fun taking trips with grandma and grandpa. Because they would. They would have a zillion things they could eat and they could do whatever they wanted, you know, stuff that we wouldn’t let them do or we would get to, you know, say, hey, you having too much of the- Listen, too much of that. You know, the motto with the grandparents was, it’s our job to spoil them. It’s your job to unspoil them. And so, so, so they, they live pretty true to that. But they would do beautiful. They would take places to different scenic places that were drivable from Washington, D.C., and they would go with the kids. So they were telling us about the beautiful Nemacolin. Because one time we were looking for a place, and so the kids said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we went there. Grandpa said, go, we want to see that. With Granddaddy. They called her- They- They call my- my mother Mimi. That was her name for a few grandkids. I’ll call her Mimi. And then my father, they all called Granddad. And so they would do their little drives and outings and stuff with them. And then they came with us. One time they met us, he took two of my nephews, my oldest sister’s child, and packed them into the car, and they came to Detroit and they did Greenfield Village with us, which my parents had not been to yet. And- And my nephews hadn’t been to my daughter’s had because they’re right here with us. So they did the whole Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village stuff. And then we drove up to Mackinac. Mackinac island. Because my parents had never been to Mackinac island, neither my nephews. So we did that and then drove up to Mackinaw City and then took the ferry over to Mackinac Island and did that. And then we drove them down. They followed us through longer and two cars and we drove to. I think we stayed at- Where did we stay? I think we stayed in a condo, maybe a Grand Traverse Resort. And then they did the. Our national park up there with the sand dunes, which is over near Lake Michigan.

Erich Schnack [03:02:40] White sand, I think. Is it white sand?

Chuck Stokes [03:02:42] Yeah. Yeah. No, it was. The sand dunes are in, like, Empire, Michigan, on Lake Michigan, over on the west side of the state. Not too far, you know, because Mackinac is up in the Straits of Mackinac between the Upper, Lower Peninsula. Yeah. And so that’s really nice. But then you come back down into Lower Peninsula and you kind of go west over to Empire, and that is. Our national park is called. Oh, shoot, what’s the- Trying to remember that thing. Hey, Trudy. The sand dunes. What’s the national park up there? Near Traverse- National park up there in Northern Michigan near Traverse City.

Erich Schnack [03:03:37] And it’s not Painted Rocks, is it?

Chuck Stokes [03:03:41] No, Painted Rocks. Painted Rocks is in- That’s in the Upper Peninsula. It’s- Oh, shoot. What’s the name of it? Oh, serious. So, because we went through it when we went to Traverse City last summer, it’ll hit me later, but I’m not thinking. But it’s the only. I think it’s the only national park that we have in Michigan. But it’s the- But the exact name is escaping me. But it’s like, it’s- It’s not too far from Traverse City and Harbor Springs and- But the Michigan Sand Dunes is a beautiful, just beautiful place. It’s just sand as far as you. Your eye can see. And the kids had a ball. Just you run up and down the sand dunes. And if you go in that national park, you go to its highest level, then you can look straight across Lake Michigan, and on clear day, you’re looking at Wisconsin. Beautiful. Yeah.

Erich Schnack [03:04:50] When you were living in Cleveland at the earlier point in your life, did you ever visit Lake Erie? I know back then, before the effort of your father and Carl, Lake Erie wasn’t the nicest place to swim in, but did you ever spend time maybe at Edgewater park or other beaches up there?

Chuck Stokes [03:05:10] We did Edgewater because we used to also go to Euclid Beach. I don’t know if Euclid beach is still around these days, but that would used to be a big outing because they used to have an amusement park near Euclid Beach. And so we used to take both, both field school field trips as well as our parents used to take us to Euclid Beach. And, and I, I can’t remember if Edgewater Park in Euclid Beach are right next to each other or in this close proximity, but I do remember the names of those particular areas. And as a kid going to that because that was a, that was a big treat to go to there. And then we did Cedar Point, obviously both as kids with our parents taking us as well as taking our kids to Cedar Point. So they did that and we had a lot of fun doing, doing those. Through all the years, we’ve made more Cedar Point business than we, than we can ever remember.

Erich Schnack [03:06:14] Now. Your, your cousin Chucky. I’m sorry, Cordell, called him Chucky. You’re Chucky. I, I was talking to Cordell and he told me that he likes taking his boat out with his friends on Lake Erie. And we kind of came to this thought that it’s almost like this full circle where, you know, your, your father and Carl really helped to clean that area up and now he’s, he’s swimming in Lake Erie. Have you ever taken a boat out with your cousin and gone swimming?

Chuck Stokes [03:06:46] I have not, but I know he has done that, you know, because he stayed in that area and then see, I moved, we moved to D.C. when I was in. Midway through 11th grade. And then I never moved back to Cleveland on a full time basis after that. I, you know, at that point I was in D.C. and then, you know, off to college and in grad school and stuff like that. And then eventually, and a few other cities in between and then eventually settled in Detroit, back in Michigan because I was down south in the, in Atlanta and Nashville for a while and then New York and grad school. So I never went back where he, I think once he left New York and moved back to Cleveland. When Carl came back to be judge in Cleveland, he, he stayed in that area. So he has spent much more of his life in the Cleveland area. I, I really only did the first 16 years of my, my life and then I moved off. You know, I get back to visit a lot, but I never lived in Cleveland full time after living for high school. So yeah, he’s probably had much more experience Than that. The one area we want to go to that we haven’t been to yet, but I know Cordell has been and some of my other cousins is the Lake Erie Islands, you know, like Put-in-Bay and all of that. We haven’t actually done that yet, but we matter of fact, on the way back yesterday, we bypassed, you know, came through Cleveland coming back from the D.C. area. And so at one of the rest stop areas, we picked up a couple of the brochures for the ferries over the Put-in-Bay and stuff. So we said we gotta do this one of these times. Very cool.

Erich Schnack [03:08:39] Taking a look at our time here, I just wanted to give you a heads up. We have about 10 minutes before 11 o’clock.

Chuck Stokes [03:08:46] Okay.

Erich Schnack [03:08:48] So I think I’ll give you one more question and then we may want to schedule another interview moving forward, if that’s all right.

Chuck Stokes [03:08:57] Okay. Yeah.

Erich Schnack [03:08:59] So I’ve got one more question here just about your time in local parks or parks anywhere here in the States. And then I’ll- I’ll shoot you an email a little later today to schedule us another interview, if that’s all right.

Chuck Stokes [03:09:13] Okay, that’s fine.

Erich Schnack [03:09:17] So one question I have here is, did your father ever talk about his views on the environmental movement? I know he wrote that Flood and Harbors Act back in the ’70s that really introduced lots of the wildlife language into some of the conversations that were being had with the Army Corps of Engineers and stuff like that. But I wanted to know if you had any memories of him talking to you about the environment or just any thoughts that he, he would bring up a lot.

Chuck Stokes [03:09:52] I don’t remember anything specific. You know, that was the type where he, he really didn’t bring his work home in the sense of talking about all the things he did. You know, I learned so much from reading his book about policy things that he did when he was on Capitol Hill because he was a very modest person and he wasn’t braggadocio in any sense of the word. And so he wouldn’t come home and say, I did this, this, this, that and the other today. And I think probably because it was more like when he got home, he was ready to unwind from all the politicking and legislative work that he had done on Capitol Hill. If you’d ask him about something, he was more than happy to talk to you about it. And particularly I think with the grandkids, he did a lot of that because I, I think he felt like, oh, they weren’t around to see some of this, that he did so when they were asking questions about historical stuff that had happened that he was really eager to talk to them about it and give them a good history of it. I think as siblings, we grew up with so much of it that I think we witnessed a lot of stuff first, firsthand. And so it wasn’t as necessary for him to come home and talk about stuff. You know, we would hear about different stuff on the radio and stuff, but- And if he talked about it, he would do it, you know, if it came up naturally in a conversation. But he wouldn’t just come home and say, here’s what I did today. Here’s an act that we passed, or something like that. And I think that was just more of his nature. You know, he was a hard worker, and when he got out of that office, it was kind of like, so. And he was more interested in us. You know, he would want to know how our day was and what did we do and, you know, how. How were we doing in school and what kind of sports we were involved in and, you know, is there any particular thing going on in our life that he should know about? Because he made a real habit, my dad and my mom both, of attending all the important things in our life. And he would want to get it on the schedule, as busy as he was. He would, you know, tell us, or my mother from time to time, you know, to call Joanne in his office, Joanne White, who was wonderful assistant in his office, you know, make sure Joanne knows that that’s on such and such a day, so she can get it on my calendar and stuff. So we would do that, and Joanne would, you know, she’d lock it in. She would lock it in, you know, so. So I don’t really recall me personally. Now. One of the other siblings might have had a more detailed conversation with them, and my oldest sister might have, since she was older than all of us and spent more time with him chronologically than any of us, just by virtue of the fact that she was the oldest. And my oldest sister is four years older than me. But I recall him just expressing it in more general terms when you would be talking or an issue would maybe come up on television or something dealing with the environment. How he would make us point out of it’s how important it was that we as a society protect the beautiful areas that we have and not develop everything. And I think he was conscious of that. And I remember in conversation with him once talking about that delicate balance between developing a city, but also not big footing it to the point where it’s just buildings, buildings, buildings, and we not take up the nature areas. And because at that point, you know, when Cleveland got through its worst days and, you know, the bankruptcy and all that stuff, and then trying to rebuild Cleveland, he was very involved with trying to do whatever he could on, from a federal perspective to help Cleveland get funds to rebuild areas. But he also wanted to make sure, because he knew the downtowns needed to get rebuilt and good housing needed to be in place. And he was real especially proud when the new the federal courthouse went up with Carl’s name on it, as well as the. The veterans building there over in the Case Western area that has his name on it. You know, those things. He was really proud of those things because I think he felt like, wow, you know, that people think enough of me and my brother to actually put our names on buildings. So any work very closely with the Cleveland Clinic and all of this expansion because it has such a big footprint on the Cleveland metropolitan area and jobs. But he also understood that you have to have beautiful places for people to go see and take their families and experience. And so he wanted to make sure that in the mix of all of that, that we had museums and we had just, you know, parks and natural places and not just the show case parks, you know, off from downtown, but that they were. We had parks and neighborhoods because he understood that not everybody can afford to go to, you know, downtown, and that people oftentimes couldn’t get beyond their individual neighborhood. And I think that’s maybe why the 21st Congressional District caucus parade was partly important to him every year because, you know, they would always do that on Labor Day for- I can’t remember how many we- We would come in and go to when they would have the parade, you know, and it would always start at, finish. It finished there at Luke Easter Park, which is, which is right in the city. And that’s where the stage would be set up. So it would start around what used to be. I guess it’s still near the old A.J. Rickoff Elementary School, which is the first elementary school I went to right there on Kinsman. And then it would go down all the way to Luke Easter Park and end up there. And he wanted a parade that went through the heart of his district in Cleveland and through the neighborhoods, because he understood that that average people needed to be able to see their politicians and their leaders with. With their own eyes and not have to travel out of their neighborhood to be able to see them. And then they had all sorts of activities set up at the park for kids and games and other stuff like that. And I think that was real important to him that that mix be involved with all the other national type of stuff that he was involved in. And I remember when he passed and we. We had the funeral, how, how kind of poignant it was that as we drove from Olivet Institutional Baptist Church, which is where his funeral was, to Lake View Cemetery, that the way they had the procession go went through the heart of the neighborhood, bypassing the streets that he and Carl lived on, so that the people in that neighborhood could have one last chance to be able to see someone who fought so hard for the things that he felt Clevelanders needed to have. And that- That was- And it was what was touching about it was the number of people who were just sitting on their porch watching and, you know, very prideful, you know, paying their last respect.

Erich Schnack [03:19:00] It’s interesting that you, you mentioned that, you know, he cared just as much about local city parks and as he did for these, you know, bigger projects like cleaning up the river and stuff like that. A little fun fact that’s related to that is that during your uncle’s time as mayor, there were actually more small city parks established in Cleveland than any other time in Cleveland history, even up until here. Here in 2021. I wonder if your, maybe your dad had some effect or some influence on that. Do you know about any influence that your father may have had on your uncle’s establishment of small parks?

Chuck Stokes [03:19:52] I don’t know of anything firsthand per se, but I would not be a bit surprised because they work so closely together. And I know that Carl always really big on- on- on making sure that there were parks as well as good housing. And that became obviously one of the things he pushed hardest for, was one of his major platforms as mayor. It was also one of the more controversial things because he really, you know, you know, worked closely with the business community, but also really challenged the business community to do more to make sure that there is equal housing and opportunities and fair housing. Of course, fair housing was a big thing back then, and he even worked with Richard Nixon, who he was ideologically not in step with, and certainly was of the opposite political party. And so he criticized Nixon on many things. But Carl gave also a famous speech about that. He said when Richard Nixon did things that he felt were right, he was going to give him credit for it as well. And which goes back to Carl and dad’s philosophy of you have to work with your adversaries as well, and that, that you can find common ground if you’re truly a good politician and elected leader, that you have to be able to work with people across the political aisle for the betterment of society. And so if there was something in which Carl needed some help from the federal side to get federal monies and grants into, I’m sure he would have gone to dad and said, hey Lou, how, how can we work together to be able to get this done? And they were happy to work that, that back and forth together. You know, it’s. To them it was a two way street. You help me, I’ll help you. And that’s why he wanted dad to run for that seat, because he knew that there oftentimes the more expensive things you would need federal funds to be able to do and you needed to have a good connection in Washington. And if it’s something that dad couldn’t do directly, he looked to dad to be able to say, hey Lou, who on Capitol Hill do we need to be going to, to get this done? And so oftentimes it was dad maybe making a phone call to another colleague on a different committee, which is maybe a committee that was more directly involved with whatever it is Carl was, was Carl was trying to do to be able to just make that link between the two. And Carl oftentimes came to Washington to testify before various committees to get things that he felt were important. Not just the Cleveland, but Carl had a national stature. And so in working through the, the, you know, National League of Cities or US Conference of Mayors in which he held different positions with, he oftentimes was speaking on their behalf or what mayors across the nation needed.

Erich Schnack [03:23:18] Thank you very much, Chuck. That is all of our questions for today. Is there anything else that you would like to tell us?

Chuck Stokes [03:23:28] No, not- Well, right at this hand that I can think of, you ask your questions or great questions. Hopefully I- Hopefully I gave you something to work with and, and, and I’m glad you’re happy to put this together rather than me.

Erich Schnack [03:23:44] Yeah, it’s been a great time talking with you today. I loved hearing about your family park trips and hearing about your recent trip to Shenandoah too. This will be a great addition to the biographies that we have going of both Louie and, and Carl. So thank you very much.

Chuck Stokes [03:24:02] Oh, it’s our pleasure and glad to be able to do so. And thank you for doing this as well because it’s important to just keep this history alive.

Erich Schnack [03:24:10] Yeah. All right, well, we should be reaching out to you again via email. To maybe schedule one last session here with some little questions that we have left. But thank you again for your time today.

Chuck Stokes [03:24:25] Okay, Glad to do so. And thanks so much and appreciate us talking to you.

Erich Schnack [03:24:29] Take care now.

Chuck Stokes [03:24:30] Bye-bye. Okay, thank you. Bye-bye.

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