Abstract
Howard Carter is a longtime living history volunteer for the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. He has portrayed John Malvin, an abolitionist and canal boat captain active in the Cleveland area in the early 1800s. His family emigrated from Alabama during the Great Migration and he was born in Akron, Ohio in 1967. His father, “Pee-Wee” Howard Carter was a significant musician who performed on Howard Street, Akron’s jazz hub between the 1920s and the 1960s. In this oral history, he discusses memories with his father and family traditions.
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Interviewee
Carter, Howard (interviewee)
Interviewer
Jones Macko, Rebecca (interviewer); Schnack, Erich (participant)
Project
Green Book Cleveland
Date
3-3-2023
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
73 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Howard Carter interview, 03 March 2023" (2023). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 723001.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1454
Transcript
Howard Carter [00:00:00] Hey.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:00:00] It is March 15, 2023, and I’m Park Ranger Rebecca Jones Macko. And today we’re going to be talking to Howard Carter. With me today is Ranger Eric Schnack, who is going to be our tech person. This oral history is part of the 2023 Inclusive Storytelling Project. So Howard, can you tell us your name and spell it?
Howard Carter [00:00:26] Howard Carter. H, O, W, A, R, D, C, A, R, T, E, R.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:00:35] So can you tell me approximately how old you are?
Howard Carter [00:00:38] I am approximately, I don’t know, 67.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:00:43] So were you born here in Akron or somewhere else?
Howard Carter [00:00:45] Yes. Born in Akron.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:00:47] All right, can you share with us the names of your parents and any siblings you might have had?
Howard Carter [00:00:52] Yeah, my mother is Alice Ruth Moore of Huntsville, Alabama, and my father, Robert “Pee Wee” Howard Carter is one of the jazz legends of what we’re going to talk about today, Howard Street.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:01:09] All right, and any siblings?
Howard Carter [00:02:21] Alice, Alberta, Charlene, Rouyn, and Patricia. I have five sisters and no immediate brothers, but my daddy was a rolling stone. My daddy had four wives and there were 20 children. I took my mother’s color. My dad is Lakota and Irish, and my mother is Black Seminole, and Geechee, Gullah-Geechee. I took my mother’s color and my sister’s, You Black, you [inaudible]. And this was a problem. But this, I think, seems, was a common thing in the day. And being a musician, my mother was a singer and my daddy was a musician on Howard Street. My dad could go through the front door, but my mother had to go through the Colored Only entrance on Howard Street. Yeah. That caused a problem.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:02:24] Wow. So is that the only work that your parents did? They were musicians or-
Howard Carter [00:03:08] No, of course my mother was a domestic whatever. She cooked, she cleaned and was very good at it. And there was the cooking, especially. There were so many recipes, different things. And they would hold chicken and fish fries, and, you know, people would come to the house and you would pull the furniture back from the wall, from the middle so you had a clear open space where the musicians would have a jam session. These were the best times, and these were the worst times. I wanted to kill people because whereas these- My mom made the best fried chicken, collard greens, cheese and macaroni cornbread. And we couldn’t have any. They were $15 a plate. And that was a big jam session. It was a good time, but for the kids, not so much.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:37] So, yeah, that was kind of torture for you, smelling that food and-
Howard Carter [00:03:40] Watching them eat it. [laughs]
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:46] And did your dad do anything else besides playing?
Howard Carter [00:04:14] Dad was a foundry worker, entrepreneur extraordinaire. He made up stuff as he went along. As a matter of fact, my daddy had me research my whole entire life looking for a gorillaphant. What is a gorillaphant? And so finally, on his last final days, I went to him on his deathbed. I says, Dad. What is that gorillaphant? He said, I made that up. I thought that was not very funny.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:04:25] But it kept you occupied.
Howard Carter [00:04:26] Oh, yeah. It kept me in trouble too, because people- I would make up stuff like that gorillaphant thing. And they were going, you know, your child has issues like what is the gorillaphant? Is your dad. His dad told him that he all the time making up stuff too. Both of them have issues
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:04:51] So did you remember your grandparents?
Howard Carter [00:06:00] Not really. I do remember going down south. I do remember almost being killed by a bull because I wasn’t supposed to cut through the fence. Cut through the fence, cut through the. They had the like barbed wire and post with that type of thing. I don’t know if it was electric or not, but I didn’t want to walk all the way around. And almost got killed by the bull. So once they got me to safety, then my mom beat the black off of me. Told you not to go. And I did anyway. And the thing that I was reminded of clearly, the dirt was red. And now I’m not sure if that was Kentucky because Daddy lived in New Castle, Kentucky and Mama lived in Huntsville, Alabama. I do know getting in them car, my daddy had 1965 Chevy Impala wagon. It was a tank. [laughs] And he put his fishing boat, rowboat. We had an outboard motorboat, but he put the rowboat on top of the car. And would bungee strap it, and we would ride around going looking for fishing holes like we was in the Romulan vessel.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:06:38] I’d be willing to bet with red clay that was a red soil, it might have been Alabama because I’m not remembering a lot of red soil in Kentucky.
Howard Carter [00:08:44] So yeah, I would say yeah. And there was so many fields, so much crops. It was good to go out. It was better to go in. It was better to come back to Ohio and stay here. The people used a foreign language to me. I did not understand Gullah-Geechee. And then the natives, I, my older- I do not remember their names, but I do remember the little white man as I guess was my great-grandfather. I remember the white people that was a part of our family. And you know, you don’t question. You just- But the food, the different cuisines, the mix, that was always a good time. It was always a good time. There were certain places that you could go, and there were places you better not go, and especially at night down in both Kentucky and Alabama. It really wasn’t safe in Alabama, but what I learned, it was worse in Ohio, More importantly Akron, Ohio. There were designated areas, but there were also designated officers. And these officers were light complected Black men and women that would beat you to death if they got you in the wrong place and arrest you.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:08:54] This was here in Akron?
Howard Carter [00:08:56] Akron, right on Howard Street.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:09:04] So we’re coming some more into the questions about Akron, but at the moment your family obviously traveled a little. So did they do anything else for hobbies? I mean, your dad fished, your mom cooked. Well, what else do they do for recreation?
Howard Carter [00:10:52] My mother did crocheting and the doilies and the lace. Flea markets. OMG. Goodwill. That was a secondhand store. Now we came to O’Neill’s Post Keys because that was- We attended Wesley Temple African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church. It’s the oldest and largest African congregation here in the city of Akron. And mostly school teachers, professors, African American professionals attended this church. And my mom was not- She had 14, I mean, eighth grade education. And she was self-conscious about that, so she concentrated on what she thought was her lane. She did what she knew to do best. She called it mother wit, which is common sense. And it worked. And they had their little women’s clubs and they did the Eastern Stars and the social groups like that, the secret societies and the gospel singing, prayer meetings and different things like that. That was a big deal. That was a big deal. And of course we were included to do and encouraged to do so. Daddy was very good on the saxophone and the trumpet and the keyboard, and he could not read a note. So.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:11:12] All by ear?
Howard Carter [00:11:13] All by ear. And that was common in the day.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:11:19] So what kind of music did he play?
Howard Carter [00:12:06] Jazz. Jazz. That’s what made Howard Street. This new language, this integrator. Jazz. Not so much blues, but the jazz. And you would take and make a little, like- I asked John and just make it into a song, you know, and you were being like- But what it sounded like was something totally different, you know, it didn’t like that word ask. It was in a dialect that sounded like ass. [laughs] And he did little things like that, just. And most people were, what, what, what did you say? So. And that was an opportunity for him to explain it to you, which you really didn’t want them to do. But it was the parody and the comedy at the time, which-
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:12:33] So he’s pulling comedy and parody into his playing.
Howard Carter [00:12:36] Yes, yes, yes. So they kept the conversation and it kept the show moving, and a good time.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:12:44] So do you remember any special events or holidays or family traditions that your family had, other than your mom torturing you by cooking all those wonderful meals? [laughs]
Howard Carter [00:14:39] The big deal was when the family came. It was a big, a big deal when you knew that your cousins were coming from Chicago or Alabama from- People who had names like Honey Bunt and Sugar Bee. And these were guys and Honey Lamb and Baby. And they dipped snuff and chewed tobacco and they had jars. Not hardly many smoked. That was- And you wore head rags. They’re greasy head rags. But that was signature. And you had your different oils and ointments and you knew exactly who was who because you could smell them coming. [laughs] The recipes and the things to watch. It was common to grow your own food. Chickens, hogs. It was so traumatic when they slaughtered them though. My aunt could take the chicken by the- One time and it would be. I tried to bap the chicken and his head went over sideways and he ran around the yard. And then they clubbed the pig and dug a hole, built a fire and put him in it. And he told us, you’re going to eat that. After a little coaxing, it was pretty good.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:14:52] Sounds like a hog. So you cooked it in the ground.
Howard Carter [00:14:55] Right. And then, they would- Let me see. The women, like I said, going to the flea markets, the Goodwill, that was a big deal because they wanted to go to places like Fairlawn, Mogadore because that was the good junk that the white people were throwing- Good stuff. And it was good stuff. But what my people didn’t realize, we had the brass rails, the American-made stuff, wood and things like that, that was country, but it was more durable. They didn’t like that until they started seeing the white people getting these cast-iron beds and tables with the glass. The things that we had that were handcrafted by our granddad and uncles and aunts and things that we made from going out. A tree fell. So you cut it down. You’d sand it.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:16:17] You’d do your own table.
Howard Carter [00:16:18] You do your own and stuff. And they had to learn the self worth because we were made to think that we were not as good as. And some of it was taken way too serious, too hard. But then we realized. After the white clubs closed, like the Palace and the things uptown, nobody- It was taboo. You don’t want to be caught on Howard Street. But they came. Secretively. They used the back door or the Colored Entrance so nobody would know they were judges and lawyers and business people.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:16:59] Coming into the clubs.
Howard Carter [00:17:02] After hours on Howard Street.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:17:09] I think I’m going to come back to some questions about personal life since we’re drifting into this area. So, so you’re a musician, so tell us about what you play.
Howard Carter [00:21:27] Okay. Right now, currently, someone gave me- Well, I got beat up and I got ran over about- I got run over three years ago, and then I got beat up. And so a friend, Richard Seeger, who was the chef at First United Methodist Church, who lives in Silver Lake, just came over to the place where I was living by the dumpster, Holy Trinity Lutheran, and said, you’re coming to my house. Because I had started cooking at the church. And I was reluctant, but I knew that I couldn’t continue to sleep outside. And it was just yesterday that I realized I had stayed outside all winter. And it was-
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:18:12] Was it last winter?
Howard Carter [00:18:13] No, three years ago, almost four. Four, yeah. And it was a rough one. I guess my liver and inside my internal organs had been smashed. I didn’t know it, and I was defiant. I did not want to be going back and forth because I couldn’t afford it. I had been evicted from the place that I lived 36 years. And they destroyed my garden and everything. And I was broken. And pride will kill you. It’s the stupidest thing, you know, instead of getting help, I’m going to do this on my own. And I almost died. And as a matter of fact, I wanted to die because I had had enough. I had been doing so many things. Met Rebecca Ranger, Ranger Rebecca, who allowed for me to present as John Malvin. Then I became a trainman. And then everything went to hell in a handbasket. So with the clarinet, he shot me this clarinet. And I remembered immediately. My dad played saxophone. And I picked it up and it didn’t have a mouthpiece. So we went out and got a plastic mouthpiece and I started making sound. It’s almost a year now. It’ll be a year and I finally have gotten to the middle of the scale, reading and memorizing the notes, remembering how the people took my dad’s music. He spent hours composing, but didn’t know how to write. Again. Wrote it, got musicians’ unions and prevented him from benefiting from his own music. And that was just like the way that it is. And then being a dark, complected African American that you, I do, you know, you- I catch purity, natural hell a lot of the times about that. So being that I already have three strikes against me, I’m gonna do the right thing. And then to make it to wise 67, my sister that’s named Rouyn Noranda, named after the twin cities in Canada, Ontario, said Daddy was 70 years old when he started having us, the last kids. What? Okay, so. [laughs] Keep your pants. You know, the last of us. The last six of us, however. Yeah. Because the eldest boy was stillborn and I guess that was a common thing too, in the day, because of lack of, you know, funding or being able to pay for [crosstalk] medications and all of that. Yeah. But we were survivors. We made these ointment and then the- With the Native American aspect and the Geechee, they called stuff voodoo and witchcraft and made up ointments and all kinds of stuff like that. Some of this stuff is like, hello, what are you doing? [laughs]
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:22:01] My grandmother, great-grandmother made her own sauve and-
Howard Carter [00:22:08] Ooh.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:22:08] Yep. Some of it doesn’t smell-
Howard Carter [00:22:11] Very good. But it worked. Or at least we thought it did. The one thing that I always remember was when you got the mumps and they took the sardine stuff and- [laughs]
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:22:23] They tied sardines on you?
Howard Carter [00:22:27] No, they put the sardine juice in a tourniquet. I don’t know what you want to call it, band-aid, like- And it was supposed to take the swelling down. Yeah, it ran off most people. [laughs]
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:22:43] Which kept you from getting sicker.
Howard Carter [00:22:45] Yeah, that’s it.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:22:49] So you’ve seen destruction and I’m sorry, I did not know the story about the tragedy in your life. I knew you had been evicted. You had told me that at one point. And you’ve seen some destruction. So do you remember the destruction of the Innerbelt when that came through here?
Howard Carter [00:24:50] That was the most depressing thing. I believe I was in high school. I remember watching them build that. I remember my dad lived over on Douglas Street. Fortunately, that neighborhood was just on the edge of- And it wiped out- It wiped out communities. It wiped it- And then for it not to be used. You know, in my mind that was people control because there were so many places near the canal and around that area where the police couldn’t control you. You know, you could go hide, you could get away and you were being chased and whatever be caught. You had a bootleg liquor store. You was making hooch. You were catching animal. Raccoons, possums. The people knew how to cure and eat this food. This was food. Groundhogs, the vegetation, roots, tubers and different things. But this was poisoned by all of the pollution. Goodrich, Firestone, chemical plants, metals, powders company all dumped their waste in the canal and in the river. And it pretty much wiped everything out. And especially with this new construction, the sediment, because of all- This also washed into- And the soot was clogging up and backing up the flooding. It was very terrible. It was terrible. But again, we survived that. Yeah.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:25:12] So what do you remember about- Tell us about Akron before the Innerbelt?
Howard Carter [00:25:18] Akron was vibrant. You could smell the oats, Quaker Oats, at a certain time of the day. And then Scott’s five and dime. You could smell- Where the stadium is now. Do you remember the Scott’s?
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:25:34] No.
Howard Carter [00:27:38] Scott’s five and dime was a department store that had a little bit of what is common to a head shop today. Okay? The posters, the beaded curtains. It was like a gigantic Woolworth. Okay? With many- The lunch counter. Oh, that was a big deal. The cheeseburgers was 55 cents. Okay. But the works. Fries. Okay, let me see, the popcorns, I mean the peanut shop, which is still there. The jewelry stores, the arcades, theaters, restaurants. Anybody that was anybody was in Akron. And everybody worked at the rubber factory. So there was cash flow in Akron. Some of these people look like they had came out of the lamp black shop or the- And. But everybody had, had, you know. I guess there also was welfare and so on and so forth for those who needed it. And. But on the most part and entrepreneurship and nothing else. You made shoe shine box. You could go and make you spit shine. Learn that quick. Little young Black boys. The canal was the place. My mama say you go down, don’t be going down there with them little white boys all in. You ain’t white. I would be right down there, you kidding? Carp. It was salamanders, crayfish. This was- You could still eat this. It was the start of the end, of the death of the canal. And you could tell. These things were mutated, you know, started- Yeah. And you could tell that you were in there by the way you smelled. Latex. Okay, I forgot the question.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:28:00] So tell us about memories of Akron or Howard Street before the Innerbelt.
Howard Carter [00:28:08] It was the place to go. Okay? It just was. They had the parades. I couldn’t stand that because you had to go up the hill or down the hill. There was no happy medium and- I have to go to the restroom. I need to go to the restroom. [recording pauses and resumes]
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:28:26] You were getting ready to tell us about your memories of Akron and Howard Street before the Innerbelt, and you were saying it was alive-
Howard Carter [00:30:35] Are there was- It was the place to be. There were people- Ella Fitzgerald, Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway. People of that caliber. Elizabeth Montgomery. Just different people. And there was the Akron Recreation Day Parade at the end of the season where- This drew people to- The All-American Soapbox Derby. That would be the- Ah. And it was a big deal. All the parks, every park in the city would have a float entry. But it was a big deal. You went to Howard Street to be seen. It was just it. Okay? So. And this was a place that a lot, again, European Americans didn’t want to go there and let people know that they were there. But at night. A-ha! At night, it was on and popping, and there were over 100 businesses. And there were the Tropicana. The place to eat was the Green Turtle, the Top Hat, the Hi-Hat. Dot’s Record Shop, Sam’s Cigar Store at the corner of West Market and Howard Street, North Howard Street. South Howard Street went behind what is now the federal building. That also, there was anything you wanted, and I mean anything. [laughs] Okay. And then there were times when you didn’t know what you had to be. For real, for real. The drag era, the gay thing, drag queens. And, you know, it was common there. And then there was the Blue something, the lesbian club at the corner of North Street and West Market. North Street, Maple Street, Rhodes Avenue. All of these places interacted with Howard Street. And Highland Square, which they called Queens Row. I didn’t understand. I didn’t understand it for just the longest time. So. But- And it was acceptable. It was common. I didn’t know.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:31:11] So do you remember the Allen Barber Shop or the Cosmopolitan?
Howard Carter [00:31:50] Yeah, I think it might have been the Allen Barber Shop where I used to get my hair cut. That’s where Donnie Whitworth’s father and something- What was his name? I could think of it. I just thought of that. Cistrunk. Cistrunk. Okay, and I think this was at the corner of Main and Market. The Portage Hotel had a place called the Rubber Room. And that- Oh! That was all just- You remember? Ah. And tell me about-
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:32:02] When I think of Rubber Room, I think of a padded room. So tell me about this Rubber Room?
Howard Carter [00:35:02] Oh, no, no, no, no. This is where the jazz- After Duke Ellington and my dad and different ones had played their spot, they went to the Rubber Room. Then that’s after-party or after-club , you know, those were the places to be. And it was legal. Not really. But there were certain people that did not want you- It’s time for you to go home. You go home. We are free. But there were people that didn’t want us to be free. You are not going to do this. Not in this town. Yes, we are. And you’re going to like it, or we’re gonna tell your wife. Okay? [laughs] And it was that simple, you know, because you were- It was the place to be. It just- It just was, okay? But you know, like we called the police the stormtroopers because just as sure as you got to partying good and stuff and people were making money, hand over fist, the police would come. Then for transportation we had what was known as jitneys. The jitneys. You could go, you could do what in the day- But then, which was always prevalent, there was this syndrome called the Willie Lynch syndrome. Make them fight amongst themselves and all we have to do is sit back and watch. They will destroy one another. So what do I mean? This little bag of tools, take their differences, make them bigger than what they are. Install the tool of hate, distrust, and envy, with distrust being the most powerful of them all. Install this intensely for one year and it will refuel itself for 300 years, maybe a thousand. So when you see people, our people, like, ooh, you fat, you ugly, you got nappy hair, you light complected, you got freckles, you think you better than- And people fought. Heartless mad. You got a hooptie, you think you better, you live on the hill. What? Are you kidding me? And we fought about this. Put the female ahead of the male because she’s going to bring forth life. All you got to do is get him to seed you. You don’t need no man to have a baby. What? This is how we function. And this was very traumatic. And you could see people being knived. You get drunk and end up dead. You got a little bit of change, I’m going to get you. Enter heroin. Then this was utilized as the [inaudible], double edged.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:36:16] So that was in the like ’60s when heroin and stuff comes in?
Howard Carter [00:37:54] Oh no. ’30s and ’40s, ’50s. Rabbit tobacco, that’s what’s used to make children- And what you did, you took a brown paper bag and a black stone, put the black stone in the sun. You put the brown paper bag in the river and you take the rabbit tobacco fresh and you roll it up in this brown paper bag and you put it on that black stone to dry it out. And then you go have fun until the sun go down on the Santa Monica Boulevard. [laughs] It gave you the munchies and whatever you could think of. And that was- There were all kinds of things. Mushrooms and just tree bark, just- But you better know what plan it is because it would kill you dead. And these people knew. But you had to make do with what you had. But what white America didn’t realize is we got a whole lot that you don’t know we got. Okay? And we gonna use it to our benefit, ’cause you don’t know what we doing. This is why we got the ADM now. Okay? This is why we have all of these different-
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:37:57] ADM?
Howard Carter [00:38:00] Akron Drug Board? Or- I don’t- It’s the drug board. So alcohol, drug and alcohol, drug and mental health. ADM.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:38:14] Thank you. Yeah.
Howard Carter [00:38:15] So. Yeah. So. And this is meant to control. But what they didn’t understand was little Susie and sometime little Bobby, like that jungle love. And once they got a hold of a piece of that action, mama couldn’t control them anymore. They was doing jungle boogie, [laughs] shake your groove thing. Yeah, yeah. Okay? And when the mixes of the races started, for real, for real, Late ’50s, early ’60s, and so on and so forth. And the flower power children. Well, well.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:39:09] We’ll get you an audio.
Howard Carter [00:39:09] Okay. I think that was the best thing because we moved from the Northside. Actually, I lived on Otis Street right next to the Cuyahoga River. The Angelos was right there. [device beeps] Oh, shut up. Oh!
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:39:38] He’s talking to his own recording device because he unfortunately ran out of space. So you lived next to Deangelo’s, you said?
Howard Carter [00:39:46] No, Angelo’s.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:39:47] Angelo’s.
Howard Carter [00:39:48] And it was at the bottom of the hill right next to the Cuyahoga River, which they called a bucket of blood. And behind it, on Charles street, was the arcade where the pinball machines and so on and so forth- Across the street was Big Mama’s. Okay?
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:40:08] What was Big Mama’s?
Howard Carter [00:40:09] A restaurant. And then she looked like Aunt Jemima. You know, big, wide girl.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:40:15] But she could cook.
Howard Carter [00:40:16] And she made a cup of white beans and fat back for 50 cents. Oh. Make you want to go slap somebody. Okay? Yeah, with some cornbread.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:40:28] Oh, yeah.
Howard Carter [00:40:31] Okay. Collard greens, mustards, turnips, “poke chops.” That’s what we call them. Not pork chops. “Poke chops.” Barbecued, fried, baked, you know. Macaroni and cheese, fat back and- Okay, wait a minute. What is that stuff? Pig brains and scrambled eggs. I can’t think of-
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:41:00] Souse?
Howard Carter [00:41:01] Mm-mm. You take the brain and you scramble it. You scramble it up. [pauses to explain beeping sound outside] That’s the bus. An egg.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:41:11] Mm-hmm. I know what you’re talking about, but-
Howard Carter [00:41:13] But it’s not souse. It’s the brain.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:41:17] No. Yeah, I-
Howard Carter [00:41:18] I can’t think of the name. It has a name. And that was- And it was inexpensive. But see, our people were so trying to be civilized that they allowed for America to tell them, this stuff ain’t good for you. So now things that you are accustomed to, you have to change up. And you’re eating vegetables with pesticides on it. And different things that these people say, excuse me, are okay, but we have not been eating these things. We have not.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:42:01] You got your greens and stuff from collard greens and from mustard greens.
Howard Carter [00:44:05] Beans and peas. And the average African family had garden in the backyard. They grew- We grew our own stuff. We were self-sufficient. All we needed was some money to make do. We had the numbers runners, which is equivalent to the lottery today. It was illegal and it was always like said, once the European learns how to control or get their cut, then it will be legal. Yeah. And it came to pass. It sure did. Howard Street was- It was- It was a place to be. You could get your little cup. You played a horn, you played the guitar. You know, street performing? Oh!
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:43:10] Busking, buskering?
Erich Schnack [00:43:11] Mm-hmm. Busking.
Howard Carter [00:43:13] Busking. It did- And then the different shops, the barber shop. The barber shop. I don’t know what it was like in the beauty shop, but the barber shops, they talk so much smack. You know, and please God, do not have a sports event. And I guess the Akron Armory was good for that. The boxing matches, roller derby. And the Akron Armory was equivalent to what is the John S. Knight Center today. Okay? And it housed, of course, you know, special venues. You know, you had to be the Black this, that, and the other and so on and so forth, instead of we have this event going on. You had to know that there were Black people here and we’re here. I don’t get it, but that’s special.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:44:23] So you said your dad had played? Do you remember the names of any of the clubs that he played in?
Howard Carter [00:44:28] Tropicana, Hi-Hat, Mathews Hotel. Angelo’s, of course. All- All- I can’t remember. And I was going to- I was going to specifically do that in a- The Rhythm Bar, The Cove. The Cove was actually on West Market, but you can rest assured, every club on Howard Street, my dad headlined. It was the Pee Wee Carter Trio and they was- My dad, especially with the big, the bass saxophone. The saxophone was as big as him. Tall. So.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:45:32] So you said it’s the trio? So who else was in his trio? What other instruments?
Howard Carter [00:45:36] Keyboard, bass, and drums. Okay? Johnny Goodson played the drums. Mary, Marion, I can’t remember. Marion was the piano player. And I don’t remember who the bass player was. Let’s see. And because I’m looking for it, [phone rings] because I want to see it, I won’t be able to find it. Okay.
Erich Schnack [00:46:24] I’ve seen advertisements for Tropicana. I believe that’s the one I found with your father’s name mentioned.
Howard Carter [00:46:32] You know something? I’ve been talking- We have gone way past your due. It’s 11:18?
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:46:39] No, it’s 11:20, I still have some time.
Howard Carter [00:46:42] I want to go down there. Let’s go down there to the monument to Howard Street, the place. And it’s like five minutes’ drive. You know, there’s a place to, right over by, what is the pizza place?
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:47:04] Luigi’s?
Howard Carter [00:47:05] Luigi’s. Yeah. [device buzzes]
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:47:08] That’s my phone. It’s gonna make that [inaudible]. Somebody’s trying to call.
Howard Carter [00:47:32] Erich, we’re gonna have to-
Erich Schnack [00:47:38] Are you free at 12? Are you free today?
Howard Carter [00:47:41] Yeah, I ain’t got nothing to do.
Erich Schnack [00:47:43] Oh, why don’t we finish off the- Do you want to finish off the oral history here?
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:47:48] Let’s go about 20 more minutes and then, well, I should probably finish in about 20, 25 minutes. And then if you have wanted to walk down to, or even drive down to Howard.
Howard Carter [00:48:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we’re- It’s a beautiful day and we’re not gonna get- I’m shocked that we get- And I need to download this because it’s full. I can do that on the way out and then have more, you know, so I can- And I could share pictures, you know, of the actual place. And it’s, you know.
Erich Schnack [00:48:21] If we go down there, we should take some pictures too.
Howard Carter [00:48:23] And then the canal, the connection was like, how did all these Black people get here in this area?
Howard Carter [00:49:16] Well, the canal, the run to freedom right there. Right- Beech Street Trailhead was one of the major stops in Akron. Okay. On the Cascade Locks. And it’s better if you can walk down the- Because I followed it from- I live in Callis Towers at the corner of Thornton and Rand Street or something. And the Towpath runs straight 20-minute walk from my apartment, from my front door to Lock 3. And that walk, you start out on the Wolf Creek level. You don’t get to the Akron level until you get- All right, West Exchange Street going north.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:49:30] Going- So you’re going higher. Yes.
Howard Carter [00:49:34] Yes. Yes. And then you come down by Beech Street. The Innerbelt.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:49:47] So what other Black-owned businesses do you remember? You mentioned Mama’s, Big Mama’s.
Howard Carter [00:49:54] Big Mama’s. You know, I can’t think of them by name. And I’m sure that I had intended on talking to Norman Taylor because they lived over there. But there on Howard Street there was over a hundred businesses. I did the Miller Horns thing and he talked about that. So I can send you that also. And it has actual images of Main and Howard, you know, were- There were shoe shops- [device buzzes] And I mean they actually resold the stuff. You’d put taps on your shoes and everything right there. Okay. I can’t remember.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:51:01] Okay, okay. So you described earlier your ethnic background. And you hinted at Akron’s charged racial history. So how would you describe Akron’s racial history? Or what’s been your experience with it?
Howard Carter [00:54:35] I was able to cross barrier, break barriers because of my education. Although dark complected, when people hear me speak, you speak like, you talk like a white boy. Okay, see, that’s because I want you to understand what I’m saying. You know, the first time. I don’t like to explain. I don’t like to repeat myself. And sometimes there’s a habit, people go, huh? Just because you will answer again and I won’t. Okay, I know you understood clearly what I said the first time, and that made waves. That pissed a few people off. But at the same time, they understood that. It’s about communicating, mm-hmm. You just want to control, and I’m not wanting to be controlled. I don’t like that. I know you heard me. You know you heard me. So let’s move on. And to be direct, people don’t like you, but they respect you. And that was- That was pretty much it. And then people start assimilating. What’s the, the worst, the best form of flattering? Assimilation. I understand what you say. Okay? How, where, what? Get a book, read it. And then talk to me about it. Let’s talk. And then when people realize that you want them on board, there’s a lot of people that’s intimidated because you think you better than me. No, you think I’m better than you. You know? You need to open that book and let’s talk about it. See, I used to take bubble gum. [laughs] I wanted to make me a lion. I seen the stuff in the craft book, but I didn’t have Play-doh. So you take straws for your whiskers and you stick it in this clay, you, to cut the eyes out. And so I used bubble gum. And you know, it didn’t last as long. But, you know, I got the point across, got my little images. As you see, my mother took pictures all the time. And so that’s where I got that from. Because when you go back and you- I cried this morning because I went back and I seen images that I haven’t seen for a while. And I don’t know why I was all full of myself, but I was. And it was good. And it was good. I was not supposed to live to see 18. My daddy told me that. I’m 67.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:54:54] So you weren’t supposed to live to see 18 because you were too-
Howard Carter [00:54:58] I was a smart mouth. Okay, how you know that, Dad? Cause you got a smart mouth. Where I learned that from, Dad? You know, the apple don’t fall real far from the tree. So. And then to be able to assess quickly, you ain’t got to say nothing. People don’t like that. Who do you think you are? Who do you think I am? [laughs] Yeah. I was really grateful that you, Rebecca, allowed for me to be a Ranger because that was unacceptable. You know. And then Pam gave me the outfit. What? [laughs]
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:56:02] You’re one of Pam’s actors. Yeah.
Howard Carter [00:56:06] Okay? And then, see, this is the reason I was saying, I cannot get to Fitzwater. I so want to be back on that train, because you just don’t know what it is like every time when we go by Lock 38 and I cannot get off the train.
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:56:34] So the train is not running right now, as you may know. So hopefully in the next month they’re able to fix - month, month and a half - hopefully they’re able to fix that.
Howard Carter [00:57:15] Yeah. So you guys keep me in mind. Fundraising. Fundraising. I used Richard’s car for almost a whole year. Richard is 79 years old. And I work as volunteer in the kitchen. But as we know, it takes money. You- People don’t care what you’re good at. If you ain’t got no money, you ain’t getting nothing. It’s pure- It’s pure and simple. So. And I don’t know how many times more around this sun I’m going to go, you know?
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:57:27] None of us know.
Howard Carter [00:57:28] None of us know. But I do know this word right here needs to be option. Do you have-
Rebecca Jones Macko [00:57:38] So we have about 15 more minutes. So I wanted to know, so what were your experiences of race growing up?
Howard Carter [00:59:57] The ones that I didn’t like, you know, you can tell. You know, the ones where I fit in, you got to get in where you fit in. And you knew where you fit in. Those people didn’t want to be bothered with you, you could tell, you know. They talk stuff out the side of their neck. And to save myself from going to jail, because if you make me come for you, I’m going to beat the shit out of you because I’m going to jail, okay? And usually the lighter complected people, the white people that want to talk this smack, you know, they usually have to have backup, but by the time that it was an angry young man, why do I have to do this and this like this, and you don’t have to. And then you want to press the issue, you want to put it in my face. Oh, we’ll, beat you down. And that was just not the- And I was a baton twirler. I did not know. And I could twirl three batons at one time. This got me out there. That got me out there. Oh yeah, and people loved- Plus I could get coins, little change. People would come pick me up in cars as long as our house in the not-so-good neighborhood. And then I started feeling. Dad, I knew what it was like to go headline, to put people to want you for your talent. You know. Because there were other people things that were not- I want you to- I’m not doing that. Okay. But I can get out in the middle of the street. My mama said I was jumping up and down, throwing sticks. No, Mama, I was twirling batons. [laughs] Oh, you do? You know, bright and early in the morning, I’m jumping up and down, throwing sticks. Go sit. [laughs]
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:00:01] But you’re practicing for baton.
Erich Schnack [01:00:06] And that’s the one that you picked up because she wouldn’t let you play football?
Howard Carter [01:00:10] She used to get so pissed.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:00:13] On the batons?
Howard Carter [01:00:14] Oh, she really didn’t like that at all. Okay, Mom, this is the last straw, okay? I’m going to do something whether it’s right or wrong. So this is-
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:00:27] So you chose batons over football?
Howard Carter [01:00:28] I didn’t have no choice. I couldn’t afford. I could afford- You know, I started making money, a little change in my pocket. But then after I got the wind knocked out of me, you know one time you hit in the chest, right on the numbers and you inhale all them bugs. And you’re all cross-eyed like you’ve been smoking crack or something. You know, you can actually see the stars.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:01:02] The little stars like the cartoon.
Erich Schnack [01:01:06] Looney Tunes, right? [laughs]
Howard Carter [01:01:09] So okay. Ooh, no, no, no, no. And then I picked up a flute. And I could sit in the front row. And then the music started again. And my mother was the singer, Daddy was the musician. And I attended Wesley Temple, as I said before. And I didn’t want to be in the children’s choir because- I wanted to be in the gospel choir. Our cousin, I don’t know, her name was Gussie Ford, was the gospel choir director. And she allowed me to be in the choir and sing. And that’s all I wanted. And I sang a song and rocked the church. [laughs] Ooh. And then that started another chapter. I started drinking. But on Sunday mornings, let’s see Thursday evenings and Sunday mornings was [inaudible]. But I didn’t like them polyester robes. And we stood up in the choir stand. The pipes are right behind it. So I would drink me- Let me see, what was that called? A 40-ounce. And I would have on my shorts and tank top.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:02:58] Underneath the polyester robes.
Howard Carter [01:03:02] Yeah. And my mama said, you just don’t care what you look like, do- No, no. Just like that man. That’s not what she said. But I’m paraphrasing there.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:03:21] You’re nice about that one.
Howard Carter [01:04:07] So then the music started all over again, and I started blazing the trail there, like you were saying, the Gregorian chanting. As a matter of fact, I do that at St. Bernard now, okay? And I still cater with predominantly European Americans. There’s opportunity. A lot of my African American people put barriers, you know, like I am in a Civil War unit and they have restraints. They wanted to be restrained and they want to control. I wouldn’t be controlled.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:04:16] So you’re saying the European wants to control?
Howard Carter [01:05:56] No, the Black people, African Americans. The Europeans give you opportunity. I’m a Ranger, Rebecca. You allowed that, or Pam. And you’re here again. Okay. At the unit that I’m in, there were 15 people the last time we were in New London, Connecticut. There was no cook. I said, I’ll cook. Oh, yeah, cook. They paid me and everything. But, you know, I had an opportunity that I didn’t get from my troop members. But these troop members said, yes, go ahead. We have 15 people. The first meal was my version of the egg, bacon, egg, cheese, bacon McMuffin. And I could toast the muffins on the cast-iron skillet. And they were- And they loved them. Fresh brewed coffee in the open. And then it was time for lunch. It was back to back, no problem. I had a clean table, clean dishwater. Folks want you to do everything, but they only want to eat. And I just- I refused. You want to eat? Wait, you missed lunch, but I bet you didn’t miss dinner. [laughs] Oh, yeah. And you didn’t miss breakfast.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:06:00] Break fast, yeah.
Howard Carter [01:06:02] So you know, you-
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:06:07] So we have more questions that we’re going to have to come back and answer. But when you think back on your life to this point, what important social or historical events do you think had the greatest impact on you?
Howard Carter [01:07:39] When Martin Luther King got killed. [sighs] Devastated me because he was out speaking truth, and he got killed for it. Bobby Kennedy, Jack, John Kennedy, they were Irish descent. I’m Irish and Lakota. They spoke about equality. They got killed for that. They wanted peace. I wanted peace. [laughs] I still want peace. I hate not being able to make a living the way that I- I talk good. There’s many people get paid for that. I cannot. I’m a performer. But yesterday my professor was trying to give me the business and I wasn’t having it. When I played that A and I tested it. Let’s see if he’s telling me the truth. And I pushed that key and it was the A, the one higher than the B, B flat. And it was the one higher than that A. Oh. Oh. [laughs]
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:07:45] You got it right.
Howard Carter [01:07:52] Hullabaloo.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:07:55] Just keep dancing.
Howard Carter [01:09:35] It was on and popping. You couldn’t tell me that I didn’t stink. And I can go on because I was in the midst of I don’t want to do this no more. I just don’t want to do this no more. Because you get to a certain point and there seems to be a roadblock that you can’t get around. You can’t get over. It’s just there. It was gangbusters yesterday. Whoopa! And I will keep going. I thought that I was going to miss you because I was riding on the Roo Express. That’s the school bus. Excuse me. And fellow friend, musician, African, has promised me this and that and the other and so on, so forth. And I do like to do anything. I gave him a free sample and so on and so forth. And now it’s a bunch of stuff. I gave you product. I don’t want to hear about talk. You know, I don’t want to hear that. I want you to do what you said you was gonna do. And I can’t make you. And I’m not gonna say no more about it. So. It ain’t right to mistreat people and think that it’s all right. See? But what you do comes right back to you. Learn that early.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:09:56] Karma.
Howard Carter [01:09:57] Karma. So, that has been my success. Tell the truth. You want the truth? Tell the truth. You want to be right? Do right. Do unto others as you have them do unto you. It works. It’s real. That’s it. That’s all. [laughs]
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:10:24] All right. Well, we’ll be back because we’ll have to go back and reformulate because there’s more questions. We want to know, you know, when your family traveled, how did they travel? What do you remember about this? And how’d you get involved with us, the national park?
Howard Carter [01:10:37] Oh.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:10:38] So there’s more questions to come.
Howard Carter [01:11:14] Oh, I’m grateful for this. You know, again, though, folks, I need funding. Some kind of way. I’m asking because I just- Ha! I’m doing a corned beef sandwich fundraiser. Maybe you guys can later. Well, in Saturday, St. Patrick’s Day, so. But help me because I don’t know what else to do. I’m not gonna steal. It gets you put in jail, so. But, you know, the only thing you can ask. And if you have John Malvin or something available, or something available-
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:11:24] Yeah. We’ve talked about Canal Day again, possibly this fall, so.
Howard Carter [01:12:30] Okay. Please. Okay. Now and especially- I was at the Akron Digital Media Center when it was here. And the people who started this place, this thing, you know, they didn’t really support me with the John Malvin thing. Miller Horn stood- I’ll show you the design of the Mathews Hotel. Introduced me to John Malvin. I just heard that Todd somebody, Todd Wagner or something of this. And Leianne Heffner, or whatever.
Rebecca Jones Macko [01:12:10] Summit County Historical Society.
Howard Carter [01:12:13] We’re talking about John Malvin, or did some story here lately. I don’t particularly care about that because I asked them when I was to help me. And now you’re gonna step out on your own and do it by yourself. Really? Really? Thanks, guys. So and I thank you for your support and thank you for listening to me. And I hope to see you again soon.
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