Norman Perttula came to Cleveland in 1961 and served as chief designer at the Dalton & Dalton architectural firm until the early 1990s. He also served on the design committee for the Euclid Corridor Transportation Project. In this 2006 interview, Perttula shares his thoughts on Euclid Avenue, discussing the Euclid Corridor Project and some of his favorite buildings on the street. He also speaks more broadly about the urban problems facing Cleveland and offers several possible solutions. In addition, Perttula briefly describes his work on the restoration of Firestone's Akron headquarters and goes into some detail on Aurora's Walden residential complex where he lives and serves on the building committee.
Perttula, Norman (interviewee)
Gibans, Nina (interviewer); Yanoshik-Wing, Emma (participant)
American Institute of Architects
"Norman Perttula Interview, November 17 2006" (2006). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 951023.
Transcription sponsored by Leonard & Betty Boesger
Nina Gibans [00:00:12] Okay. So this is Norman Perttula and I'm Nina Gibans, and I'm supposed to say that in the beginning. So.
Norman Perttula [00:00:19] It's... The pronunciation of the last name is PERT-tula. It's a Finnish name. If I gave you the Finnish pronunciation, it'd be accent on the first syllable and lots of rolling of the R, so it would be [demonstrates proper accent] Pertulla.
Nina Gibans [00:00:35] Ah. Nice. It sounds nice that way.
Norman Perttula [00:00:38] Yeah. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:00:40] All right. Well, I think that starting with your name is great and... But tell us what you're doing now and what you have done, and then we'll go from there to where you came from to Cleveland and all that.
Norman Perttula [00:00:56] Well, I've been an architectural designer all my career. I was brought to Cleveland in 1961 to join the Dalton, then Dalton and Dalton firm, as their chief designer. And I worked there on many projects in and around Cleveland, Ohio, and outside of Ohio. I sort of retired in 1991, but I still keep active on my own little projects just outside of my house. And every once in a while, my old firm, which is now URS, calls me in for a project. I've done this a few times. As it's turned out, mostly it's been in the Columbus, Ohio, office. I've worked on a couple of buildings at Ohio State with them there in previous years, and two years ago they asked me if I was interested in joining them for a project they were hoping to get, if I joined their team, and it sounded interesting to me so I said, Sure, I'll do that. I have the time and it sounds interesting. Well, that was October 2004. We were awarded the job through a series of interviews, but then it lay dormant for two years, various things. It's a federal funded project, but it just started actively this past August, late August. And what interested me about the project is it's at West Point, the Military Academy. So I'm working on it now and it's very active. I drive down to Columbus on Monday morning and usually come back Thursday afternoon, and I'm the only one in the office with the drafting board. [laughs] The scope of the work called, somehow, called for the submittal of the first report that we're working on now that the drawings... They recommended that the drawings be freehand. Well, it's right up my alley, so I fit in. However, it took about a month for the office to get me a drafting board. I was drawing on just the table, really freehand. But now I have a drafting board, but the rest of the office is all on computer and they come by and look at my drawings because I don't think anybody currently really knows how to draw very well, but they're all working away on their computers.
Nina Gibans [00:03:26] You aren't the first one to say that. But in this group, when did that start? Since you... [crosstalk]
Norman Perttula [00:03:33] My career?
Nina Gibans [00:03:34] Yeah. Let's go through your career a little bit.
Norman Perttula [00:03:36] Way back. Well, I'm from Minnesota, and I went to architecture school at the University of Minnesota. I graduated from there with my Bachelor of Architecture in 1953. I always liked to draw and the last couple of years I was in school, my senior professor hired me to come work part time in their office, and I was doing a lot of renderings. And then I worked there that following graduation for two years, and I was interested in going to graduate school. So Minnesota has had a long tradition of sending students on to graduate school, and many of the faculty and professors are alumni of Harvard and MIT. That was sort of the main popular schools. They had a long tradition of that, as I said. So I went to Bob Cerny, my mentor sort of, and he was principal of a large firm in Minneapolis and, where I worked, and he was the senior professor sort of at Minnesota. I told him I was interested in graduate school and he said, Well, where would you like to go? And I said, Well, I'm thinking of Harvard or MIT, and he said, Just apply to Harvard, because he was a Harvard alum. So I went to graduate school there. I finished there in 1956, and while I was at Harvard, I got a phone call from Eero Saarinen. That's this Finnish pronunciation. He had apparently come to the campus, as he used to do regularly, as I understand, looking for people that he might hire. I was apparently recommended to him by one of my Harvard professors, and so he called me and offered, said he'd like to have me come out to their office in Michigan for an interview. So I did that and was hired and this was like in March or April. And then I went to work at the Saarinen office, which then located in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, in May of 1956. I worked with Saarinen for five years, essentially worked on three major projects. The first one was University of Chicago Law School. I was a designer on the design team. Second project was the TWA terminal at New York JFK Airport. A very exciting project, very sculptural. We had a great team working on it. Then the third project was the Dulles Airport in Washington, D.C., and I was the design job captain on that project, so I got to do a lot of things not ordinarily done. I was coordinating the work with the engineers and the production team and that finished its work in 1961. Eero died in September of 1961, but toward the middle of that summer, I was approached by Cal Dalton of the Dalton firm to come out and talk to them about becoming their chief designer. The office, the Saarinen office, was in the midst of moving to New, near New Haven, Hamden, Connecticut. They had purchased the property there and were planning to move the office, but unfortunately Eero became ill in the last part of August and died, I think, just at the end of at the end of August. He was only 51 years old. He had a brain tumor. I had given my notice. I had been toying with whether should I go to Cleveland? Should I stay with Eero? I had been there five years. I wanted to spread my wings. So I made the decision to move. But I told Eero six weeks... I gave him six weeks notice so we could finish all the work on the Dulles Airport. And it was in the last couple of weeks when he, when Eero died. I'd only been in the office in Cleveland, I think, three days, just like came the day after Labor Day in 1961, and Eero's funeral service was like a couple of days later. So that takes us to '61.
Nina Gibans [00:08:41] And it takes you to Cleveland.
Norman Perttula [00:08:42] And takes brings me [to Cleveland]. [crosstalk]
Nina Gibans [00:08:42] Is your wife from Cleveland? No, she's from South Dakota. We met in Minneapolis where I was going to school and working.
Nina Gibans [00:08:52] Right. Okay. Well, that brings you to Cleveland with a history that I think is unique among your peers.
Norman Perttula [00:09:02] Pete Van Dijk work... both working at the Saarinen office at the same time.
Nina Gibans [00:09:08] I see. Okay.
Norman Perttula [00:09:08] Pete and I... Background go back a ways. You might find this interesting. Pete was in grad school at MIT the same time I was at Harvard, and I worked for the Architects Collaborative in Cambridge while I was going to school. And we had three children when I was in grad school, so I had to have some income coming in. I used to work every morning and Saturday, so that was... And the Harvard Yard was just a couple of blocks away. Pete's wife, Donna, was, who was an architect also, but she was working full time at Architects Collaborative. So I met her at the office, and so I knew her before I had really met Pete. But we used to do a lot of things together, the two classes, Harvard and MIT, and there were quite a group of our Minnesota folks. We had three Minnesota people at Harvard and there were three at MIT. So we had our own little clique.
Nina Gibans [00:10:14] [inaudible]
Norman Perttula [00:10:15] But we did a lot of things kind of socially, as I say, between the two classes. So I met Pete in that period and we became friends and then we both ended up at the Saarinen office. So.
Nina Gibans [00:10:31] So did Pete leave before you, from the Saarinen office?
Norman Perttula [00:10:36] Yeah. Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:10:38] And he, would he have had anything to do with recommending...
Norman Perttula [00:10:42] He was... pete was... I'm not sure how Pete got to Cleveland, but he worked on the Federal Building project. He was the designer of that, as he probably told you, and perhaps you knew. So the Federal Building project was a consortium of three firms in Cleveland. It was Dalton. Dalton, Outcalt, Guenther, Rode, Taguchi [sic], Bonebrake, I think it was at the time. And Robinson Flynn... I can't remember the third name, I think, Williams, Robinson Flynn Williams, I think, so the three of them set up the project, but they supplied people to a team. Pete was the head designer and they did that job. And during the course of that work, Cal Dalton apparently asked him, Do you have any recommendations? We you need a designer. And so he gave Cal my name, and that's how Cal contacted me.
Nina Gibans [00:11:46] Wonderful. At least we can trace that.
Norman Perttula [00:11:50] Yeah. So we've been friends and colleagues for a long, long time.
Nina Gibans [00:11:54] Right. So the first thing you worked on here was the Federal Building?
Norman Perttula [00:11:58] No, I didn't work on the project.
Nina Gibans [00:11:59] Oh, okay.
Norman Perttula [00:12:00] I went to work directly then for Dalton on their projects.
Nina Gibans [00:12:06] And what were... Okay. So let's follow you to Cleveland and...
Norman Perttula [00:12:11] Some of the projects?
Nina Gibans [00:12:12] Mm hmm.
Norman Perttula [00:12:13] Well, another one that interested me at the time was the Dalton office had a federal contract with the Agency for International Development, which is part of the State Department. And they had like an open-ended contract for work in Africa, mostly educational projects, and they had a project for a master plan for a new University of Liberia in West Africa. And so I... That started in 19, late 1961. And so I started on that project and did the master plan. At the same time as we were doing the master planning project, they had... They... There was an existing University of Liberia. They had a project with the, some professors from the year from Cornell University in education who were assessing the whole educational system in the country. Liberia is a third world country. In 1961-62 when we were working on it, it was a pleasant place to be, but it was very poor. They had, I think, some interesting potential that had Cleveland connections. They have iron ore in Liberia and Republic Steel had interests in there. Republic Steel was big in Cleveland at the time. They had a rubber plantation that was owned by Firestone in Akron and that was active. So there were those kinds of ties between Liberia and Ohio and Cleveland in particular, Cleveland and Akron. But the education professors found out that there really wasn't a substantial enough educational base to have a student group that could support building a university. The university would have been funded somehow through loans with the United States. But because of that deficiency in education, the project never went past the master plan. But we had other projects in Africa at the time, and I worked on other educational projects in Nigeria. And the story there, it was like a secondary school at what I think would be our junior college level. It was intended to be like a trade school. That was in a place called Port Harcourt. Well, the job was all designed, was out for bid, and their civil war broke out near Port Harcourt, and so that job evaporated.
Nina Gibans [00:15:13] Let's go back to Cleveland. Your impressions as you come to Cleveland, because this project is about Euclid Avenue, let's deal with your impressions and favorite buildings and that kind of thing.
Norman Perttula [00:15:34] Okay. Well, I lived on Euclid Avenue. Our office was on Euclid Avenue. Well, it was in the old Arcade in the Euclid tower. And so we were on the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth floors, and so we had a great view down Euclid Avenue and from there around out to the lake.
Nina Gibans [00:15:55] "We" is Dalton?
Norman Perttula [00:15:56] Is Dalton, yeah. And all the designers in the office, you know, would tell me about all the spots in Cleveland on Euclid Avenue. And one of the things that I found really fit my schedule and process very well, was at that time in 1961, the stores were open on Euclid Avenue on Monday and Thursday nights. It was a lively activity, really great. Lots of people around. I used to take the rapid in to work when I lived in Shaker Heights, when we first came here and used to take the rapid work in. So that was very convenient.
Nina Gibans [00:16:38] Is this the house around the corner?
Norman Perttula [00:16:40] No, we rented a house for a year on Scottsdale, and then the first house we bought was in Glencairn in Fernway School, and then the last one was around the corner. But it wasn't unusual to work past five o'clock, so I often worked till six or seven. But the stores were open till 9:30, so when I had to shop, Higbee's was between the Arcade and the Terminal, the rapid, so it was very, very convenient. That was terrific.
Nina Gibans [00:17:18] What else about Euclid Avenue at that tiem?
Norman Perttula [00:17:20] Well, it was the parade route. And I'm a big... I'm... Played in concert bands forever. And so a band is a particular interest for me. And you could watch the parade from those windows coming down Euclid Avenue and going along. It was, you know, it's a great spectacle to have. And the theaters were still active then but... And we'd occasionally come down with our children who were young at the time and go to the big theaters. We used to come down, of course on Christmas and go through Higbee's and all of their things, and we'd go and see the tree at... What's the name of that?
Nina Gibans [00:18:13] Sterling Lindner.
Norman Perttula [00:18:14] Sterling Lindner. My dentist was on Euclid Avenue. So, you know, there were a lot of things on Euclid Avenue.
Nina Gibans [00:18:25] But architecturally. Let's talk a little bit architecture, of course the Arcade is special.
Norman Perttula [00:18:31] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:18:32] But what else?
Norman Perttula [00:18:36] Well, my favorite building on Euclid Avenue isn't downtown. It's the Epworth-Euclid Methodist Church in University Circle. I'm a big fan of Bertram Goodhue.
Nina Gibans [00:18:50] Is that the oil can?
Norman Perttula [00:18:51] Hmm?
Nina Gibans [00:18:52] Is that the oil can?
Norman Perttula [00:18:53] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:18:54] Yeah.
Norman Perttula [00:18:55] Yeah. The oil can church.
Nina Gibans [00:18:58] And the architect again?
Norman Perttula [00:18:59] Well, this is the story, I think is correct. I don't give you... I can't give you specific dates, but Bertram Goodhue was partner of Cram, Goodhue and Ferguson. Big firm in Boston, New York, mostly working in and around the turn of the century and into the early 1900s. And the way I understood the story is he designed the church but then died during the progress of the church and Walker and Weeks, who may have been the coordinating architect anyway, finished the project. But the design, I think it was credited to Bertram Goodhue. He was a fabulous renderer, and I used to do a lot of rendering, so I was very interested in his work and it's just terrific. I acquired a book of his that was put together by his office around 1915 of his renderings. It's a nice, big portfolio size. And among the things that he did was the, were the buildings in San Diego for the Pan Pacific Exposition in 1915. Bertram Goodhue had a particular interest in Spanish Colonial Revival style, and all those buildings there are of that nature. And when I was working, still working at slash Dalton URS, it was then called the URS. They had an office in California in Long Beach. And I was... I went out there for a project that turned out to be in the California Mission style, which is based on this, on the Spanish Revival sort of. And so I was doing mission study research, and I went to San Diego to see Pan Pacific and to see their mission down there. And I really admired Bertram Goodhue's work. And so, because of all those associations, that's why that's my favorite building.
Nina Gibans [00:21:20] Right. Other buildings. Any other buildings?
Norman Perttula [00:21:24] Well, I like the banks. I like the old Ameritrust building on the corner, which is still to remain. I'm not sure the rest of it, the Breuer, is. I like the theaters. I like the Mather Mansion. That's been really the only remnant of the glory days of the houses along Euclid Avenue. Those are my favorites.
Nina Gibans [00:22:01] What about the Breuer building?
Norman Perttula [00:22:04] Well, I have been admirer of Breuer's as well. I have many heroes. Breuer was one. I just thought that the scale of that for a high-rise building and all was a different expression. Cleveland was going through the glass box era at the time, which was really not good architecture in my view. And this was a direct opposite to that, where you had the benefit of shade and shadow and a nice form, good quality materials.
Nina Gibans [00:22:41] What about the Breuer wing of the art museum?
Norman Perttula [00:22:47] Well, I like that building. Again, I think he was trying to respect the original classical form, but I thought made a very fitting composition using different techniques, different materials. But I thought the whole composition worked. And again, because I'd been an admirer of Breuer's work over the years, I thought it was a very nice piece of work.
Nina Gibans [00:23:21] Do you think Saarinen wanted to do any work here?
Norman Perttula [00:23:24] Saarinen? He may have. None that I'm aware of.
Nina Gibans [00:23:29] He didn't do any. But did you ever talk Cleveland with him?
Norman Perttula [00:23:33] No, because remember, I just came here and he died...
Nina Gibans [00:23:36] Right, right.
Norman Perttula [00:23:37] So I didn't have any chance to talk about Cleveland... [crosstalk]
Nina Gibans [00:23:41] [Cleveland] wasn't part of the conversation.
Norman Perttula [00:23:42] No. Other... Yeah. When he knew I was coming to Cleveland, he asked, Well, why are you... Why do you want to leave the office? Because I had a nice, responsible position, and there were other projects that would come. I said, Well, I just wanted to be in a position where I could make the main decisions. And he said—because all the design decisions at his office were really his, I mean, we all cooperated and made suggestions and things but he made the decisions and initiated the ideas—he said, Oh, you want to be like me? In terms of making decisions.
Nina Gibans [00:24:25] As you reflect on Cleveland, what comments about the Euclid Corridor project itself?
Norman Perttula [00:24:38] Well, I was on the design review committee for many years, and it included all of the presentations and review of the Euclid Corridor project as it went through its various phases. So that's where my association comes with it. I'm not a traffic engineer at all, so I had to kind of listen and learn what they were telling us. And I'm hoping that the project works. From what I understand, it's a little bit of a unique traffic system and it hadn't been utilized in many places around the world, as far as I know. There have been some areas. Talking about Euclid Avenue as it had been, one of the things that I mentioned at one of the big review meetings where there were all kinds of other departments and they proposed the center strip and everything, I brought up the parade. I said, Well, what do you do about a parade? Because, I mean, you divide the parade groups, half of the band is here and half of the band... It doesn't work. A float or something would be on one side or the other, and I really don't think they thought about that or gave it... If they did, they certainly didn't give it much consideration.
Nina Gibans [00:26:05] They might send it down Superior.
Norman Perttula [00:26:07] That's... They have to take an alternate route. But is that the best parade route? Euclid Avenue is the prime avenue. It's not the location now for those kind of prime ceremonial events. And I'm big on ceremony. I think we need as much of that as we can get. And it should be a thing that plays an important part in all of our lives as a historical remembrance and celebration of things where parades are part of it. So now it's had to change its route. I don't know whether it's gonna be as a successful when it's not the, what's supposed to be the primary avenue in town. We'll have to wait and see how that develops.
Nina Gibans [00:27:01] What about other challenges? We have planning challenges and the lakefront and the convention center.
Norman Perttula [00:27:07] Well, I thought about that a little bit. I think what's happened is that merchandising has moved to the suburbs. When I mentioned those old days of the '60s, Cleveland was the merchandizing destination and people would come here and it became a vital, active place for all of that. It was a special place for people to go. That's been taken away because of the move out. It's not just Cleveland, but it's all the, many of the cities in the United States. And I think that's too bad. How do you turn that around? Well, it may be happening a little bit. You know, you all know about the latest focus has been to the new old lifestyle center, you know, the Legacy Village, the Crocker Park, the Eaton Square, etc., etc. And it's happening... There's one in Columbus, Easton, and where the developers, whether they realize it or not, they're doing what the city's had in past years. So could it be that there's a merchandising solution brought back to the central city like Cleveland? I would hope so, but the merchandising seems to control it. And that's a challenge.
Nina Gibans [00:28:42] It seems to be a challenge too of the next generation, because the folks that are there now are going through a bit of trauma with their businesses.
Norman Perttula [00:28:52] Mm hmm.
Nina Gibans [00:28:53] The mom and pop businesses appear in the paper weekly as being, you know, quite traumatized by the building process. So.
Norman Perttula [00:29:06] Well...
Nina Gibans [00:29:07] That's normal.
Norman Perttula [00:29:08] Yeah, but you look, there are examples. You look around the world, and I certainly haven't been everyplace, but so many of the old European cities have managed to maintain that central core and they preserve the old buildings and insert new ones into it. And they have that vitality, many of them, in their central city and have managed to retain it.
Nina Gibans [00:29:36] What are some of your exemplars, perhaps?
Norman Perttula [00:29:39] Well, cities that I've been in that I like, I like the mid-sized cities, too, because there and really the small cities, because they're very pedestrian. They were designed for not the automobile, because the automobile has changed the scale, but the older cities don't. munich is the place we spent... Our youngest daughter and her husband and family lived there for a couple of years. They did the same thing in London for three years. And we... So those are... Now London's a huge, very huge city, very active. As I understand it, you have to get a, or you have to pay to drive into the center city in London with your car nowadays, because parking is such a mess in a big city like a big European city that you don't want to have a car. Toronto is a wonderful city. Quebec City is a medium-sized city that's very charming and interesting because it's preserved. It's old. It has wonderful geography. The historical buildings that are there have been well maintained, built out of granite, which is perhaps one reason, but they've adapted their use to commercial, and that's the kind of thing that has continued to keep it an interesting and active place for people to want to be.
Nina Gibans [00:31:12] So you're really talking about preserving the old and...
Norman Perttula [00:31:16] Yes.
Nina Gibans [00:31:17] Bringing in new ideas and meshing them in some way that makes sense. What about our waterfront?
Norman Perttula [00:31:26] Well, I would hope that the waterfront would build more of that urban center. And, you know, it needs to expand from where it stops at the, where the tracks are, and just expand out and become more dense and provide all of the kind of things that I was talking about that should happen in the central city. It needs to be more dense. Needs to have commerce and merchandising, residential, places of entertainment, restaurants, bars, shops, so that it's a destination.
Nina Gibans [00:32:14] What about living?
Norman Perttula [00:32:16] Yeah. Living. Residential. Yeah. People enjoy living by the water.
Nina Gibans [00:32:27] What are some big mistakes we might have made?
Norman Perttula [00:32:31] One of the big things was letting the educational system go down, slide down. That's such a vital part of people's lives. I mean, that's what people with children look for. They want to go to live in a place where there's good or decent educational system for their children. And Cleveland, from what I read in the papers, because I wasn't here when our, when those days were on, that the school system was, had a excellent reputation. And you probably know more than I, if you've lived in Cleveland longer than I have.
Nina Gibans [00:33:19] Well, that's true. Its reputation was pretty strong...
Norman Perttula [00:33:24] Mm hmm.
Nina Gibans [00:33:25] Mid-century. Is there anything in particular that you would do with Public Square?
Norman Perttula [00:33:33] Public Square. Well, I made a note. Now what did I say? Well, I'd like to make it more accessible. More pedestrian. It certainly ought to be a dense urban area around it with 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. activities. I think now if you want to go around the Public Square at six o'clock, it would not be very active. And so you need to build those kinds of things that draw people there from eight o'clock to ten o'clock at night.
Nina Gibans [00:34:35] What's interesting is that I think you're the only person that mentioned the stores being open at night and making that viable. Of course, that is part of lifestyle.
Norman Perttula [00:34:54] Right.
Nina Gibans [00:34:56] So have you got a big vision?
Norman Perttula [00:35:03] Well, in a bigger sense, I think it's important to get the city officials, the developers who make many of these kind of decisions and what's happening, so it's economics involved in that. The planners and the designers all need to be on the same page with the same focus on what the real values are that result in preserving the best of what we have. And they include all of these things. They include the education. They include Cleveland, downtown, becoming a destination again rather than just the people that pass through it. For those businesses that are still here and then they return back to their suburban homes at six o'clock, the downtown sleeps. So if that's important, the only way it can really be accomplished to bring it back to a vital, urban, interesting, active destination is all of these groups have to have that same focus and then they can do it.
Nina Gibans [00:36:17] Do you think we're close to that?
Norman Perttula [00:36:18] Hmm?
Nina Gibans [00:36:19] Do you think we are close to bringing enough folks together about a vision?
Norman Perttula [00:36:27] I, I really don't know since, I mean, I'm not that active in the downtown areas anymore since I'm essentially retired, but I don't see any real evidence, from where I see and what knowledge I have of what's going on, that we're close to it.
Nina Gibans [00:36:45] What about the idea of regionalism?
Norman Perttula [00:36:48] That... That's... [crosstalk]
Nina Gibans [00:36:49] Related to this.
Norman Perttula [00:36:49] I think I'd support regionalism. There was probably a good example of that, and I can't tell you how the politics work, but Toronto did that years back. They had a variety of suburban areas and they somehow consolidated. Well, architecturally that brought about the competition for the City Hall in that square space. And Toronto now is a wonderful, active, vital urban city, an enjoyable place to go. And it has many of these qualities of the downtown as an urban destination. And not unlike Cleveland, they have a variety of ethnic enclaves around the city which add to the vitality of the city. And Cleveland certainly has that. So over there, I think, is an example of regionalism work. How they accomplished it, I am not, I don't know. I'm not a politician. I don't know what happened to make it work.
Nina Gibans [00:37:55] Have you in your career worked on any of the restorations of those buildings on Euclid Avenue?
Norman Perttula [00:38:05] I don't think so. The... I must admit, I was interested in restoration early on, but I couldn't get our firm interested in it. They were... They're plenty busy with other things, so that wasn't the primary focus of their group.
Nina Gibans [00:38:27] But is there a restoration that you admire most?
Norman Perttula [00:38:31] Project I did? Well, I did a project in Akron for Firestone Tire and Rubber. If you remember or know the rubber industry, all the plants that were very active during the war and those years after, they began to move south to different areas where, for whatever reasons... And so these large plant buil
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