Jean Cotton Interview, 2009

Abstract

Jean Cotton was born in Cleveland in 1946. Much of this 2009 interview centers around Cotton's experiences growing up in Cleveland and Ravenna, Ohio under the guidance of her strict, minister father. Against his wishes, she listened to a good deal of rock and R & B music, the content and meaning of which she describes in great detail. She left home at age twenty, and music remained an important part of her life as she married and eventually had children of her own. Cotton also shares her thoughts on the subject of racism and race relations, comparing the different attitudes towards race she experienced in the various places she lived in and traveled to.

Interviewee

Cotton, Jean (interviewee)

Interviewer

Aritonovich, Dana (interviewer)

Project

Rock and Roll

Date

12-3-2009

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

79 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Jean Cotton Interview, 2009" (2009). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 200005.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/28

Related Resources

Rock and Roll @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Dana Aritonovich [00:00:04] Okay, let's begin with you introducing yourself. State your name, where you live now and what you do?

Jean Cotton [00:00:10] My name is Jean Cotton. I live in the Buckeye Woodland area. I work for Case Western Reserve University, where I am a department assistant and undergraduate admissions.

Dana Aritonovich [00:00:31] And what year were you born and where were you born?

Jean Cotton [00:00:33] I was born in the year of 1946 in Cleveland, Ohio. 79th and Platt Court. There was a little clinic called Hough Clinic. And. We left the Platt Court. It was like warehouses. They had just begun to build the warehouses and my dad was able to get one right after he got out of World War II. And we relocated to the Carver Park row houses at East 40th and Central. So basically I was there until about third or fourth grade and he was called into the ministry. We left Cleveland and went to Ravenna, Ohio, where I finished my elementary education and went on to rush to Ravenna Township. He pastored in Windham, Ohio. We came back to Cleveland in 1961 because of my grandmother's illness. My grandmother got very ill, his mom, and she wanted to be with the family. So we moved back in the Kinsman area, like 69th and Kinsman. I went to Rawlings. I picked up Rawlings Junior High in the eighth grade and from there to East Tech High at East 55th and Quincy. Graduated in 1965.

Dana Aritonovich [00:02:22] And how would you describe the neighborhoods that you grew up in before you moved to Ravenna? If you remember anything from when you were very young, what kind of a neighborhood was it?

Jean Cotton [00:02:32] Families were families, new families and children were more or less, More or less like one family into the families were entwined. You know, like my next door neighbor would come over and we would, you know, back and forth. If one had a TV, we only had one TV on the block. And everyone would come over at a certain hour to watch TV. So we all stood around a little tiny screen and watch Howdy Doody and Captain Kangaroo, Captain Penny. And then we'd have dinner as a family, sat down at the table. This was in the Cleveland area. And go to bed at a decent hour. We had to be on the porch at 8:30, dusk. And from dusk to bed, we went to bed about 8:30, 9:00 o’clock, 9:00 o’clock, 9:30 at the latest.

Dana Aritonovich [00:03:39] And was your neighborhood, was it integrated or not?

Jean Cotton [00:03:41] It was not integrated, no.

Dana Aritonovich [00:03:45] And so then when you moved back in 1961, you said, Right. Actually, could you compare, like living in. When you moved away to, like, Ravenna, did you notice at that young age a difference between that area and where you lived in Cleveland?

Jean Cotton [00:03:58] Yes. When we moved to Ravenna, we stayed- It was integrated, but we stayed on one side of town, according to, I guess, if your parents was. I don't understand how we were in the separate allotments, but there were two allotments. There was like Proctor's allotment was. Which we stayed. And there was the Skeels allotment, and uptown was the Caucasians. But we all went to school together, so that's where the integration came in. And I went to school with- I was integrated up until, like, eighth grade when I came back to Cleveland and I was older. And that's when I saw the difference with the education and the school systems and the neighborhoods. So it was still basically pretty solid as a family environment. Most families were large families. I'm from a large family.

Dana Aritonovich [00:05:02] How many siblings do you have?

Jean Cotton [00:05:04] There is total. Including me is 13 of us, and I am the eldest, and So I have 12 under me, eight girls and five boys. And so if you were from a big family, then, you know, that was going. That was the going thing then, so.

Dana Aritonovich [00:05:27] And what did you notice specifically about the integrated schools in Ravenna? I mean, how did you? Did you feel different? Was there any kind of racial tension in the school being integrated or just kids kind of left each other alone?

Jean Cotton [00:05:39] Not to my knowledge. We had dances and parties, uptown parties. You know, I'm trying to think of the name of the. It was like a canteen, more or less. And you went at a certain hour, your parents dropped you off and the parents picked you up. Girls danced with girls and guys stood on the wall. Very few guys, you know, participated in the dancing there. Kind of, I don't know, afraid of boys.

Dana Aritonovich [00:06:24] Yeah, I remember those days.

Jean Cotton [00:06:27] But we were teens too, so, you know, teens. You know, nowadays, teens go with. I mean, younger, younger generation is, you know, dating and seeing who they belong to and all that. That was a no-no then.

Dana Aritonovich [00:06:44] And then when you moved back to Cleveland, you were about 14, 15 years old?

Jean Cotton [00:06:47] I was 15. Okay.

Dana Aritonovich [00:06:48] And so you. Did you immediately notice difference in the schools, in the racial makeup and the quality of education?

Jean Cotton [00:06:56] Yes, I knew we were in a school that had a name, Rawlings, for fighting and just terrorists, more or less. Like you would- I mean, we went to- We had teachers that was concerned about the education. And, you know, you did your work, you know, you participated in what was given you to do. But in Ravenna, the teachers would come to the house if you were. I noticed that difference. You know, if your parents didn't come to the school, the teachers would come to the house and they would, you know, find out what's going on. If there was a problem, they were more concerned about the children, I think then I could tell the difference in the teachers. You know, they wrote a note. You take the note home. If the note got to your parent, give. If the note didn't get to your parent, well, they found out when you got your grades, if your grades weren't up to speed. But my dad was always at school, so I really didn't have that problem. He was always around. My dad stayed around the school so much, they thought the children thought he was a truant officer. And because not only his children, he, you know, got after others as well. So they knew him as well. They called us the Holy Rollers because he was a preacher. And of course, being around schools all the time, you know, thought he had something to do with the truant officers. We had truant officers as well, you know, truant officers rode the streets, and there was no children roaming the streets, no teens downtown. You were in school at school hours. So I noticed that difference too, as well. Compared to today, the kids are so free.

Dana Aritonovich [00:08:55] And when you were in school in Ravenna, the schools were integrated. Were the teachers integrated? Did you have Black teachers and white teachers, or was it more of one or the other?

Jean Cotton [00:09:03] It was more white teachers. I don't remember any Black teachers.

Dana Aritonovich [00:09:08] And then when you came back to Cleveland, at Rawlings, was the school integrated or it was just completely segregated?

Jean Cotton [00:09:16] It was completely segregated. And I think we had a few. Not too much. I don't remember too many, but most of the teachers were Black.

Dana Aritonovich [00:09:26] Okay. And you. And so you said the school that you went to, Rawlings, was. It was a very violent school.

Jean Cotton [00:09:40] Well, it had a name. It had a name. So, I mean, I guess today it was really nothing compared to the school today. You know, they just believed in a lot of fighting, and you got suspended if you got caught up in any of them, you know, any of the situations. But comparing to Rawlings with the schools today, Rawlings was a good school. The school started- It's crazy today.

Dana Aritonovich [00:10:09] And so when. Well, let me ask this first. What kind of things did you and your siblings do when you guys hung out? What kind of like, things did you play or where did you go to church?

Jean Cotton [00:10:20] We went to church, and a lot of times we played church. We made up a lot of games. We just made little corny games just to amuse ourselves. We were not allowed to watch a lot of TV. We had one TV after, you know, even coming back to Cleveland, we had one TV and everybody pretty much watched that same program. If you didn't want to watch it or if you weren't interested, you had a book you read. So I did a lot of reading growing up. What kind of stuff did you read? Whatever had print. But I liked a lot of. I liked a lot of the Nancy Drew mysteries and I liked. I read a lot of history books that I like to find out about the different countries. And then I began to read just things for interest. I read. I don't recall artists. I mean, artists by authors. But I did a lot. Just if it looked interesting or if it was a story that I could enjoy, I just read it. I can't remember the evening.

Dana Aritonovich [00:11:38] What's the first kind of music you remember hearing either in the house or at a friend's house or something?

Jean Cotton [00:11:45] Well, we didn't do much going to friends’ houses. It had to be right there in the vicinity. So as far as venturing out to a friend on the other side of town or on two streets over, we didn't do that. We saw them. So at home I heard a lot of Christian music and we began to date. Then we got into the rock and roll. I did a lot of Temptations, Impressions, Four Tops, just mostly love songs because, you know, we weren't allowed to do a lot of dating. Well, in my household, we weren't allowed to date because of my father's clergy, being a clergy.

Dana Aritonovich [00:12:36] So what did your parents think about that kind of music? Do they have objections to rock and roll at all?

Jean Cotton [00:12:41] As long as they didn't hear it. They knew we were growing up. But one record, my dad told my sister not to bring in the house and she brought it in anyway, was Funky Broadway. I don't know who made that. And he said, I don't want that garbage in my house. And I asked you not to buy it. So since you bought it, this is your loss. And he just broke it in half, threw it in the trash.

Dana Aritonovich [00:13:08] And what did he not like about that song Funky Broadway?

Jean Cotton [00:13:09] But he didn't like the word funky.

Dana Aritonovich [00:13:12] You're the second person, actually, who's mentioning that song in that same way.

Jean Cotton [00:13:15] Yeah, he didn't like. He thought that was not appropriate. So we liked the beat. We just liked the sound of the beat. Wasn't thinking about the words. It was just the beat.

Dana Aritonovich [00:13:30] And do you remember, did you have any jobs when you were growing up?

Jean Cotton [00:13:33] No, never had a job. Because education was the most important thing. If you had a job you had your chores at home? It was the only job. And I got a little allowance for that after I got older.

Dana Aritonovich [00:13:51] And what kind of stuff did you spend your allowance on?

Jean Cotton [00:13:57] I would save it up and buy the jelly drops and stockings or socks, you know, things I need.

Dana Aritonovich [00:14:11] And did you ever buy any records on your own?

Jean Cotton [00:14:15] Not until after I got out, got married.

Dana Aritonovich [00:14:18] So where did you go to hear the music that you lived, that you really liked?

Jean Cotton [00:14:23] Well, we heard it at home. We just heard it when they weren't around. So he was somewhat strict. He was somewhat strict. He would say, do your work. When I come back, I want this done, and. Or else you're going to be on punishment. And we would. As soon as they left, we would turn the radio on. We'd be jumping around dancing, and pretty soon someone would notice the clock that was close to letting it cool off, and we'd turn it off. He would come in and the first thing he would do is feel the radio. So he. So we knew. So he knew we were. One time he called us and he knew we had played the radio. He said. So we learned how to. When we turn it off, we took a fan and we would set it behind the radio, turn it on so it would cool it off and set something like a cold water on top of it. We had all kinds of tricks.

Dana Aritonovich [00:15:29] I like that. So you guys knew that the music was objectionable to him.

Jean Cotton [00:15:35] To him.

Dana Aritonovich [00:15:35] You still-

Jean Cotton [00:15:37] We wanted to hear it. And we would hear the school when they have. Well, if we were allowed to stay at a dance or anything. He just believed in, you know, controlling what we did. And I appreciate that today. I really appreciate how he, you know, taught us and brought us up, because now it gives me more values of what life could have been like. I never had a problem with drinking or smoking or, you know, things that now are addictive, so.

Dana Aritonovich [00:16:10] And how did your mother feel about all this?

Jean Cotton [00:16:13] She just went along with what he said. She was very submissive. She never worked. She was always at home when we came home from school, meal prepared, you know, so we never went hungry, even though. Well, when we were growing up, after we got with the 13 in the house, he got sick. So it wasn't. We really never missed a meal, let's put it that way. Never went hungry, never went cold. We were cold, never got put out. And it was just a normal, big family.

Dana Aritonovich [00:16:48] And what? What radio stations do you remember listening to?

Jean Cotton [00:16:51] WJMO, 1490, WABQ. And we went to Ravenna. I think we had access to, if I'm not mistaken, WIXY. WIXY. So we played a lot of Bobby Darin and you know, so when we came back to Cleveland we were like really geeked up to Bobby Darin and the more the white artists. So I had a mixture.

Dana Aritonovich [00:17:25] And there any DJs that you remember their names who really stood out to you?

Jean Cotton [00:17:29] Ken Hawkins. Mike Love. Ken Hawkins was the going thing. There was quite a few, but those Ken Conway. Ken Conway. Conwell. Vaguely remember the first name, but they had the little, you know, Ken Conway or Mike Love. Ken Hawkins was the going guy at that time.

Dana Aritonovich [00:18:03] And so who are your friends when you came back to Cleveland when you were a teenager? What kind of people did you hang out with when you were allowed to church?

Jean Cotton [00:18:11] Girls.

Dana Aritonovich [00:18:14] They didn't go to church.

Jean Cotton [00:18:15] You couldn't pretty much so. And there were quite a few of them at that time.

Dana Aritonovich [00:18:25] And what kind of things did you guys. Was it all church related stuff that you guys did?

Jean Cotton [00:18:28] No, we had things like we had the Y-Teens at school, so. So we went to the Y and we used to walk down to the Y at 18th and Prospect. We would go to Severance Hall to hear concerts at Euclid.

Dana Aritonovich [00:18:44] What kind of concerts did you hear?

Jean Cotton [00:18:45] I was at a. I liked classical. I was in a marching band in school. So I got out a lot with the school system and I played in the concert band. So I played a bassoon in the concert band, clarinet in the marching band and I played a little piano. Just a little. So we would go to hear certain concerts. That's been so long ago I can't remember exactly. But I do love classical music. I like a little bit of just about anything now. And I try and listen to some of the rap. Some of the rap is good and some of it is vulgar. The vulgar I stay away from and I listen. So being a teacher at church, a Sunday school teacher and mentoring this one teen I mentor, I try and hear things and see things and do things that I can kind of steer them away from if I can or get the negative stuff from it and you know, try and share to them that it's not good for them.

Dana Aritonovich [00:20:00] And what do you- Because I've actually asked questions about rap music to other people. And what do you think the difference is between. Because a lot of the music that you grew up with, you know, older people didn't like. They thought that was vulgar and.

Jean Cotton [00:20:12] Elvis was vulgar and I liked Elvis. Yeah.

Dana Aritonovich [00:20:14] But people at that time thought, oh my God, he's Disgusting. And he's shaking his hips. And performers really didn't do that. So what do you see as the connection between what's popular now and how vulgar people think that is, and what in the past was also considered vulgar? Why are those two things? Why are they different, at least in the minds of older people? Because what I'm really kind of focusing on how young people responded to the music and to social situations. So how do you compare that kind of music that you think is vulgar to the music that you grew up with, that. That your father really didn't like?

Jean Cotton [00:20:49] Well, the music I grew up with was more or less. If you could read between the lines, you could get the sexual. Back then it was more subtle. Sexual, subtle. And the music today is just bold. It's just sex. And I mean, you hear them talking about the sex through the song and. And swearing and cursing and. See, we didn't have that. And I guess the hormones were kind of stirring up in the music. When you were with your favorite guy and talk about my girl and you and me and “Smoke Gets in Your Eyes” and stuff, you know, you just like you was just listening to the. I was listening to the music and just relating it to the person I was with that I really wanted to be with. But now it tells. It makes you feel as though you need to just get in bed and just get it on.

Dana Aritonovich [00:22:00] Yep, you're right.

Jean Cotton [00:22:01] And so it's the vulgarity in the words in this rap music today. I can't take it. But then there's a message in some of the rap music that's very good.

Dana Aritonovich [00:22:18] And do you think you can compare the artists who do actually have a message? Do you think people like 40, 50 years from now are going to look at some of the people who are popular today? The way we look at, you know, like Curtis Mayfield or, you know, James Brown or people like that who were talking about things maybe in a different way. Is there anybody today, you think, who is going to be relevant in the future?

Jean Cotton [00:22:39] I'm sure this generation, I don't know, they call it the. Is it Generation X?

Dana Aritonovich [00:22:46] These are I'm X, these are, I think, Y's. They might be Z's by now.

Jean Cotton [00:22:51] I'm not sure. I- You know, each generation has its own feel of how they look at the music and how they hear the music and relate to. Because there's a maturity, you know, after a generation is into a new generation. Your generation compared to my generation, I think is more of a settled generation. They're more of an educational. They're more concerned about the educational edge of music and what it can do to you, do for you, and how it can make you think, how it can make you be creative, how it could even take you onto your dreams, help you with your dreams. Whereas there's a generation in there where it was just like, just loose. And I think the rap music is beginning to settle down and make and give a message or send a message.

Dana Aritonovich [00:23:55] And what do you think it is about your generation that approached music that way? And I think probably just like culture in general, there is a definite difference? What do you think it was about that time that you grew up in that created that kind of music, that we're creating something totally different now?

Jean Cotton [00:24:15] I wanted to, with me defining who I was, where I was, you know, it's like getting out from under control, because that was pretty much as I think back. I was under a lot of control in a lot of things. You know, trust. I don't think he trusted my father. I don't think he really trusted us because he's always said, I don't want a lot of girl. I have four girls, right? Three girls, right. Together. I don't want boys hanging around. I don't want a lot of out-of-wedlock babies. I don't want a lot of welfare recipients. So it was more or less like in their control, which was good that we held our morals. The standards he gave, he expected us to live by. We respected it because this is what life was about. It wasn't about hanging out and getting pregnant and. And, you know, just not begin. I'm lost for words.

Dana Aritonovich [00:25:25] Well, it seems like your father wanted you to excel in everything you did, and he wanted you to better yourself. Because what I noticed, like, my parents are immigrants. What I notice is people. It's not even just a generational thing. It's just like certain people with their backgrounds.

Jean Cotton [00:25:39] Right. Culture. Yeah.

Dana Aritonovich [00:25:40] And my parents came here with their parents to better their lives. They want to be Americans. They wanted to be free. You know, they wanted to, you know, better their children's lives. And it just seems like that generation, you know, at the Post World War II Generation, they wanted their kids to have something better than they had. So it sounds like that's what your father was, you know, like, don't give in to all the negativity that is around, especially for, you know, for young Black kids at the time.

Jean Cotton [00:26:04] And preachers.

Dana Aritonovich [00:26:05] Yes, yes.

Jean Cotton [00:26:06] See, that- That's where I'm kind of like, haunted. Some of the things he you know, he taught us. So you knew where the line was, you know what line to cross, how far to cross, you know, you knew. And if you cross that line, you knew the consequences. And so much as society now plays into the children today, like six, nine, six kids and you can sue your parents if they don't buy you what you want. You know, it's crazy. Society has taken away the law and giving it to the kids and they don't know what to do with it. Whereas I could, I had to get signed for to be married, I had to be signed for to get my driver's license. I had to be signed, I couldn't move out because landlords and complexes didn't accept 18 year olds unless you were married or I guess if you had a significant other, but. And if it, or a job, you had to have a job because you didn't have a job, you couldn't pay rent if you didn't have any babies, you couldn't get on welfare. So you really had to stay at home until you either married out. And I think that's why a lot of us in that, in my group and the boomers jumped out and got married because that was the only way out. They wanted the American dream, they wanted to chase that American dream and they just had to detached from their own life. So a lot of us are divorced or going into second marriages. So I am one of the divorcees. But I just had to get out. I wanted to, you know, I wanted freedom, I had freedom, but I didn't realize the freedom I had until I got out and started facing life realistically, you know.

Dana Aritonovich [00:27:55] And do you think part of why that music. Because rock and roll and all that music that kind of came from rhythm and blues, that came from Black artists, even when it was co-opted by white artists. Do you think a lot of why that was, it was, it was all geared towards younger people and it sounds like freedom was like a theme. You know, young people want to get out from the control of the parents in general. And that music was something, that was their music their parents generally didn't like. But you know, when they were listening to like swing music when they were younger and jazz and stuff, their parents didn't like that either. So it sounds like freedom is freedom.

Jean Cotton [00:28:29] Right.

Dana Aritonovich [00:28:35] What would you say that the music for you personally or you know, for other people, you knew what, what was that music? What exactly? I know you said you liked the beat of it, you liked the music itself. What was it maybe about the lyrics that meant something do you remember, like, the first song you heard that kind of struck you as having, like a social message beyond just, you know, like a boy, girl type thing?

Jean Cotton [00:29:00] There were so many.

Dana Aritonovich [00:29:01] It could be. It could even be a church song. It could be any kind of the first song that you. That you were like, oh, that's something more than just something I could dance to or sing along with.

Jean Cotton [00:29:10] Yeah, I have a church song. Church songs with church songs. You know, I came out, like I said, I graduated in 65. I went to school for about a year and I got on a waiting list for nursing school because that was my desire to be a nurse. And I was impatient. I guess I didn't have the patience to wait or to persevere or pass, you know, waiting list and. And just trying to be getting married and just, just the Vietnam War was going on. I was engaged to a guy in Vietnam and he disappeared for a year. So we didn't know if he was living or if he had.

Dana Aritonovich [00:29:59] He disappeared when he was in Vietnam.

Jean Cotton [00:30:00] In Vietnam, we know what happened. So it was a solid year. I hadn't heard from him and so I was like, still under the control of my parents. I was still at home. I was like 20 when I left home. And they were like, you know, you should be obligated. You should be. You know, you're dealing with him, so you need to just focus on him and pray for him and that he's safe. And I was just anxious to get out. I wanted to go to school. I needed my freedom. I needed my money, my own money. I was working, but I had to, you know, bring money home and, you know, be given allowances. I went to school under the veteran 10% plan. He was. My dad was 100% veteran. And I just had. Just didn't have no freedom. So I just broke camp. I said the first thing comes through and say, when you marry me, I'm out of here. And that was- And it's been rough ever since. So I jumped out and got married. And I got married in '67. Knew nothing about getting married. Knew nothing about nothing. No more than what I learned in school from the few nursing courses I had taken at Tri-C. I went to Tri-C for a little while and I went to Euclid Junior College Which was around here somewhere. I don't even remember where. And then I left there and went to Dyke College for a few minutes. Just restless. And there were no jobs. Pretty much if you couldn't, you know, if you didn't go to college or if you didn't have the background for. I guess jobs were limited, I'll put it that way because I could type and I did shorthand and so forth. But it was just. I was young and I just had never worked. I had no jobs growing up in school, so. So it's just like I was. I was restless and I was anxious and then you have all this music. So I just married this guy. I met him in three months. We dated for three months and I got married in three months. And that was a bad, big mistake. That's a big mistake. I didn't know him well and I met his family. I was still in contact with his family, but it was just. I was just still reaching and scratching and looking and scrambling and still being restless. And at that time I got married in 67 and shortly after that I got a full-time job at. I worked at Karamu House for about six months. What did you do then? I was a secretary to some guy that had a youth program. And so he got fresh with me. So I left. I just walked off. He was too old for me. He was married and already been told, you know, I wasn't interested. So I left there and I went to. I worked at Antioch Baptist Church for about a year on the Reverend Branch at 89th and Cedar. And he talked with me and my husband, he counseled us before we got married. I got married at Antioch and I was just trying to do things that my dad wanted me to do. Trying to find myself doing. Didn't have the background or the finances to just go free and just, you know, I didn't have the faith. Maybe I should say no faith. My faith was very weak. So I just kind of hung out for about a year. My first child was my son and he was born at, I was, I think 21. I was trying to go back to school. I was in and out of school, trying to. Just trying to do what I wanted to do. And the crazy thing about this marriage, this quick marriage was the day I got married, the guy I was engaged to turns up. So you know, that was not. And I had all this. My daddy could planned this big wedding and everything was in order. And it was an almond because when I got. Coming up to the wedding day, my dress got away. I came down to Rosa’s Bridal Shop to pick up my dress and this woman, I'm just like bouncing around now, this woman had taken my dress and her dress and I had her veil and my veil. So that was first step right there. No, this was before I knew the guy was home. And we found the woman. Finally caught up with it, because I felt the boxes. So I said, I'm getting. I have two light boxes. And look, I had two veils. So, okay. We found a woman walking down Euclid on her way to get some shoes at the square, somewhere around the terminal, around the square. And we got off the bus and we told them about the problem. So we had to go back to the store and get the correct dresses. At the reception, my cake was dropped. So on my pictures, my cake is like leaning number two. And the photographer had Black and white film in the camera, so I had no color pictures. Number three. And this guy came home the same day. So, you know, I was really messed up then. I shouldn't have got married. I should have. And then it was like everything was going downhill. We moved out in the Glenville area, and that's when the Hough riots took place. I think around '68.

Dana Aritonovich [00:35:47] Hough was '66. Glenville was '68.

Jean Cotton [00:35:50] Glenville. Okay.

Dana Aritonovich [00:35:51] What do you remember about those riots?

Jean Cotton [00:35:53] Well, the '66, if it was Hough was 66. I was around. I was out of school. So I guess we kind of like took the Hough riots into the Glenville riots, because I do very clearly remember the Glenville riots. We lived around Parklawn and Lakeview, and it was just- They were just burning things down and shooting it, different buildings, and it was crazy scary. So I just tried to stay focused and try to stay out the way and try not to get on the bus going. Certain areas since it was just- They just had a burning fit. It was so. And then I remember voting for mayor Carl Stokes, I think. I don't know if he was elected after the Glenville riots or during the Glen- 

Dana Aritonovich [00:36:49] He was elected just before. He took office, like in January, and the riots were in July.

Jean Cotton [00:36:54] Of the same year. Okay.

Dana Aritonovich [00:36:57] So what do you remember about the Carl Stokes, the campaign and when he was finally-

Jean Cotton [00:37:01] Well, I was working, so I was working for a lock shop. I worked there for 27 years. So I just remember he was just like, we were with Obama. You know, we just was excited. So vaguely. The campaigns, I don't recall.

Dana Aritonovich [00:37:23] Oh, there was something I was going to go back to- I forgot what it was. Well, I mean, you were going through all this turmoil and stuff, and you kept using the word restless, which I think is good, because I think a lot of people in your generation kind of had that feeling. There was a lot of chaos going on in the world and in the city and all that. So what role do you think the music Played in your life during that time that nothing was certain and you weren't really sure what you were doing.

Jean Cotton [00:37:45] Okay, "What’s Going On" by Marvin Gaye and "War. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing." I don't know who did that one, but that was really.

Dana Aritonovich [00:37:56] Edwin Starr.

Jean Cotton [00:37:57] Edwin Starr. Okay. So you know that really. And just. They were just. It made you just feel like you wanted to just blow up somebody. You just felt violent. Even though I wasn't a violent person. It's like, what is it good for? What's happening? It's just, you know. And then you listen to the words in the song. And then he came out with the song that kind of cooled us down. What was that song? Right after "What’s Going On"? It's another song.

Dana Aritonovich [00:38:38] It's from the same album, right?

Jean Cotton [00:38:39] I think it is. Or the one after it. Oh,

Dana Aritonovich [00:38:46] I'm sure I know which one you mean.

Jean Cotton [00:38:54] “What’s Going On”? It was just so many violent songs. So it was just, you know, they had good beats, though. You could dance to them. But then when you stop and listen to the words, it's like, yeah, what's going on? I'm just. I need to figure out who I am. That was my main point, what I want to do. I'm getting older, and I want a family, but I didn't want the family the way I got it. I jumped out to get the family so I could have more freedom, which I still didn't have any freedom because I married a guy that was from the South and Alabama, to be exact. And he was like, he. He came here for freedom, you know, came up north to be free of the civil, you know, Jimmy Wright. So we were just a lot of- I don't know, maybe this was not a good step for me. Just a lot of anxiety going on. This was just a lot of frustration, freedom. We were really seeking freedom. And the music didn't help because it kept you like, something you gotta do, something you gotta do. I can't think of that song by Marvin Gaye.

Dana Aritonovich [00:40:10] I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you mean. I just don't know the name of it. I think it's on the album. I think it's on the same album.

Jean Cotton [00:40:16] Hmm. And then there was change. The song “A Change Is Gonna Come” by Sam Cooke. So that was. Played a part in there somewhere. Change is going to come, and they start mellowing down. I guess we were kind of like saying, well, okay, you got to stop and you got to drop on your knees, and you just got to seek God to lead you in the right direction, just. And not get all bent out of shape about being in church. Because, you know, I was called a Holy Roller. I was called a church kid or preacher’s kids and squares. And they didn't call us nerds, but we could have been called nerds, but we were squares and daddy's girl and all kinds of stuff, you know, So I just. I guess I'm not really. I must have forgotten a lot of this information, you know, like, now that I'm working and more settled, my kids are grown. I didn't bring my children up like I was brought up. I did bring them up in the church. So I have two daughters that are. One just turned 37 and my youngest just turned 33. And they are not married. And they want to get married, but they say there's no.

Dana Aritonovich [00:41:48] Hmm, I'm that age, too, and there's nothing out here to marry.

Jean Cotton [00:41:50] And so it's like they're very selective. There's nothing to select from. So I, you know, I try and tell her, don't, you know, don't, don't, don't give up. The right guy will come along, and you just have to wait on God. And my son's 41. He's. Well, he was married, but he did one of my numbers. He has. I have a granddaughter and a grandson and a great granddaughter by my son. And so he's still not married. So he's not together. So I guess it's a pattern. And it's just, you know, I told him, you know, you grow up, you enjoy your life, and you live life to, you know, like, tomorrow, today is the last day, and just whatever you want, go for it, go after it, you be happy. I would like for you to be this and I'd like for you to be that. But when I leave this world, you still have to live, and you need to be happy for yourself. So, you know, whatever they were in, I tried to encourage them. I didn't insist on them to do what I wanted them to do. Just I insisted on him to go to church. And then I didn't insist on them to be in church 24/7 either. But no, God is the source and that he will direct you if you acknowledge him as your director and your guide. You can't go wrong. So now they're living in an apartment together, the two girls, and they seem settled and seem happy. See, me, I was like, scrapping, trying to get out, trying to break free. And I said I would never put that much Control or that much pressure on them. I would just talk to them and, you know, try and get them to see life is not about me. It's about you and your happiness.

Dana Aritonovich [00:43:49] Now, you said earlier about you got married very young and you still didn't feel free in your marriage. Did you. Did you go to, like, nightclubs or anything to see any live performers or.

Jean Cotton [00:44:01] I went to down in Euclid, Leo’s Casino, once. We were going to see The Impressions. And it was a crowd and they were- The show was about to start, and they were not letting people in with tickets at that- You know, they were like letting them in in groups. So this one particular time I got pushed. I mean, it was just- Every time the door opened, they would just push. And so this one particular time I went. I got pushed and I got caught at the door. So, you know, that was not a good experience. And my husband was with me at the time, and he took my umbrella and, you know, pushed it through the door so they could take the door off of me. And when they opened the door, they pushed me out and snatched him in. So we got the. They got the tussling inside about nothing. So they told him he could have a free ticket and come back at another show after everybody, you know, kind of settled down. But he said, I'm not going back in there anymore. So I didn't either. I went to a turkey roll down at the arena. This is all after. I'm an adult now. And they turned it into a rodeo show. I don't know what happened. Something jumped off and they started throwing chairs. So that was down. So you shouldn't go out of the house. So that's why. I guess maybe that happened. So I wouldn't go to those places. And then I went to the Red Carpet Lounge and I got carded. I was old enough to be in there, but they carded me because I was. I don't know why they. I don't know why they carded me, but whatever. I was with my husband at that time, and they, of course, he got upset with him, so we left. So this is during that time. That's '60. Ish. About '67, '68, '68, '69. Somewhere along '70. '68, '69. So we never really went to clubs after. We never got a chance to go. I see them on TV.

Dana Aritonovich [00:46:22] And what shows were you watching then?

Jean Cotton [00:46:26] Soul Train. American Bandstand was the number one. We didn't have the shows like they have on TV today. Very seldom had an artist on doing a performance like a special. We didn't have those. So American Bandstand or either Soul Train.

Dana Aritonovich [00:46:48] And who are the artists that you remember from those times?

Jean Cotton [00:46:52] Barry White, Isaac Hayes. Of course, my favorite, the Impressions and the Temptations. Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes. The one guy that Lou Rawls. The young lady is Otis Redding. There's another woman that I can't. She's still around. She sung with. Well, I'm not good with these names today. And I liked her. I remember Billy Davis Jr. and the Age of Aquarius. What was that group?

Dana Aritonovich [00:47:52] No.

Jean Cotton [00:47:55] the 5th Dimension. You got me thinking of things. That's good. Gladys Knight and the Pips.

Dana Aritonovich [00:48:06] What was it about, all that music that appealed to you? Do you think about those specific artists?

Jean Cotton [00:48:11] You know, they were always going somewhere. Something was going on. For instance, Gladys Knight, "Midnight Train to Georgia," "Leaving on a Jet Plane." That was the 5th Dimension, I think. Or they were always trying to get away or trying to. And I just like the idea that they were going somewhere. And it was just a mellow, calming sound. It calmed the spirit. It calmed your. Made you relax and think. Kind of took away the uproar of violence in your spirit. Even though, as I keep saying, I wasn't a violent person. But it's like sometimes I just want to just say, what's the use? What's the use?

Dana Aritonovich [00:49:11] You mentioned earlier that you liked Elvis. Tell me what it was about Elvis that you liked.

Jean Cotton [00:49:16] And the way he danced. And I liked his beat. I wasn't impressed with him. It's like I just liked his music. There was one song we used to sing out in Ravenna all the time. Blue Suede Shoes. Songs. I should have wrote this stuff down. But the ones that stood out the most is the ones. I can think of something he had. I can't think of any more. But I did like Elvis. I mean, I could stop and listen to him, regardless of what it was like to sound. Were there any.

Dana Aritonovich [00:50:21] Well, you didn't really go out very much. So I was going to ask if there's any, like, local bands that you remember hearing about.

Jean Cotton [00:50:29] Earth, Wind and Fire. Was it. Were they local? No, the O’Jays were local. O’Jays were local. Did I say O’Jays? The young men had just lost two sons. the Leverts. They were local. the Womack Brothers. They were between spiritual and hip hop. I think they kind of ventured on. Of course, they come out of a family of church folks. That was. the Chantels. They weren't local, but the Chalets. At this point, no-not too many if you mention them, I probably kind of roll with it.

Dana Aritonovich [00:51:26] The Bar-Kays, were they from Bar-Kays? I think they might have been.

Jean Cotton [00:51:31] The Bar-Kays, The Bar-Kays, Bar-Kays something like that.

Dana Aritonovich [00:51:36] What do you, what do you think the. Let me ask it like this. And you mentioned like the music that younger people listen to today. What, what kind of message do you. Do you wish they got out of the music that you grew up with? You know, since the stuff they listen to, like we said before is, is just in your face, it's raunchy, it's, you know, not always giving you a positive message. And a lot of them don't want to listen to the old music because it's their parents' music or the grandparents music, whatever. What do you wish they understood about the music that you grew up with that had an impact on you? What kind of message do you wish they got out of that?

Jean Cotton [00:52:11] That it's not about. It's not about violence, it's not about killing, it's not about sex. It's not about just wearing the big gaudy jewelry and driving a big, fine car. It's about getting an education and being more mature, responsible, caring adults. I got from the music I'm hearing today with the young people, it's telling them that they all got to just go out there and lose their virginity. And pretty much if you don't, then you know you're not in. You're not with the in crowd. The in crowd. That was one of them. In crowd. That was an awful song. And it's not about being with the in crowd. It's about being who you are and being happy with who you are and being responsible. Responsible, law-abiding, civil person looking to make an impact on another generation's outlook. The generations now are just like they're lost. If you have no one in your environment to tell you that it'll pass, then you just kind of fall in sync with the others. You become lost and you just have no. Nothing to look forward to. And life is more than what the average young person is doing today.

Dana Aritonovich [00:54:07] Do you think this music that you grew up with, which all, all of it came from Black roots in some way, some kind of rhythm and blues or something, inspired all these different kinds of music. Do you think it had any impact on the way the races got along or viewed each other? Do you think it had any. Anything to do with race relations either specifically in Cleveland or. Because a lot of the Leo’s Casino really was the only integrated nightclub in Cleveland. There were a couple other ones that Maybe had a few, you know, mixed couples or something. But for the most part, nightlife in Cleveland was segregated.

Jean Cotton [00:54:41] It was.

Dana Aritonovich [00:54:42] And do you think that the fact that this music was popular with Black and white audiences, do you think it affected the way people thought about each other, either racially or just in a general, like, more humane way?

Jean Cotton [00:54:59] I think it had an effect on how people thought about each other, felt about each other, as far as, like, you know, interracial marriage was not appropriate at that time. You know, stay in your race. It was more or less geared to, this is your race, this is what you do, and this is how you react to. To what's going on in your neighborhood and your surroundings. You can't be like the people in. And then two. Cleveland has so many suburbs. Since I've grown up, you know, like, all the new places that have come up, like Solon and Twinsburg, this was all country. Now it's beautiful suburbs. Well, I've always lived in inner-city Cleveland. I've never had a desire to live in a suburb because I feel the opportunities are still in Cleveland. If more people would take a look at what Cleveland has to offer and not, you know, brush us off. I don't know if I said that correctly, but, you know, I had a lot of white friends out in Ravenna. We don't. I mean, if I. We never. We didn't keep in touch, but I'm sure if I run across a couple of them, I'm sure we be like old times. And then I have a lot of friends I have here in Cleveland. After I came back to Cleveland, there was maybe one or two whites or Hispanics in East Tech, but they were so few that you try to make them feel that, okay, you're not the same color, but we're all human. We're all in this together. I always tried to reach out and touch. I didn't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. I just wanted to be myself. And if you accepted me, fine. If you didn't, fine. And then I started working with this. My boss was Jewish, and so I met a lot of different ethnic groups that came in to the store. So I just really never had a problem with race. You know, I just never. So I guess I wouldn't be a good. I guess as far as, like, speaking of racial relations. And, you know, there's white artists I like, too, and can listen to. There's white Christian artists I like that I listen to. And I have white Christian friends. So it's not about. I've never had A problem with the race, even though I know it's there and I know it's very obvious in certain areas, in certain things you do, I just try to stay away from that. But if I have to go there, then I'm myself. I don't go there thinking I'm better than they are or they're better than me. If I feel that it's going to be a negative point of view like that, I try to steer away from it.

Dana Aritonovich [00:58:01] When is the first time that you remember experiencing racism?

Jean Cotton [00:58:04] When I took my Girl Scout troop in 86 to New York. Wow.

Dana Aritonovich [00:58:11] 1986.

Jean Cotton [00:58:12] Yeah. And it was like I was a Girl Scout. I was a dedicated Girl Scout leader for Lake Erie Girl Scout Council. And I would get irritated because a lot of the things that we- That were available for us to do as Girl Scouts, that we got a decent bargain from it. And most of the Girl Scouts were inner-city girls that, you know, parents were either working parents or didn't have money. And so we were able to go to a lot of benefits for reasonable rates. So if they couldn't pay the troop leaders or somebody in the troop or either, we had little fundraisers where we could take them. Take them. And we sold cookies one year, and it turned me off with Girl Scout cookies. Even though I like them and I still buy them. We had a cookie cupboard and we sold enough cookies to take our troop to Buffalo. We found out, and I told the girls they could do anything they want to do, go anywhere they want to go, and excel as high as they want to excel. The sky's the limit. And so I felt that I was, like, contradicting myself when I took them. And what I said, because we went to New York and we had this. We were in this area where they didn't know we were a Black troop. So. And we had been corresponding with the young lady for. Oh, she. So when we first. When we pulled up in front of the church, she walked out. She says, oh, you're Black. She's like, wow. So the girl that was with me, she said, yes, I thought you knew. Well, I didn't know. She said, well, is there a problem? Because we have these kids for the weekend. We had about. It was 16 girls. We made the Call and Post that year. So you could find that article in the Call and Post. My name was at that time was Jean Burrell, 1986. If you look at the Call and Post, we have these girls talking about this ordeal. We went to New York and it was crazy. It was just so. It was embarrassing. To me, because here I have been telling my girls that you can do and you can go. And then they say they see that that's really not true. And so I just, you know, we kind of, like, resigned from the group. I kind of resigned from Girl Scouts. We stayed. We took care of them. We had a rough weekend, but we were able to find housing for them, and they just kind of dismissed us. And so when the parents found out that we were a Black troop, they didn't let the other kids come out. 1986, Buffalo, and the county was called Tuscarora County. Okay, so we. I was, like, lost. I said, oh, what are we gonna do? We have these kids for the weekend. We have. We had to find housing because we were staying at this church. I couldn't sleep. I sat up in the chair like this all night. Because they said that the. The church where we were staying, the guy. They were Hispanics. And we. When we went to the different department stores, they said, oh, you guys are from the area. You guys are around here in the area. It was a 1776 celebration or whatever. I said, yes, we're visiting from Cleveland. And she said, well, where are you staying? I said, we're staying at whatever the church's name was at that time. It kind of, like, blocked all that out of my memory. But are you. You staying there? I said. I said, yeah, we're going to be at this park. You are? It's like, oh, man. I said, what's. Is there something wrong? Oh, no-no, no. We just don't frequent that park. So I was saying this to other flats that I had met the stores. So I started watching, and we got back to the church, and my other scout leader was saying, well, something's not right because we only have about four or five girls here. And this was supposedly a unit thing for the area. And when we had the park, we got to the park that Saturday, we could see how there was one kid that was just trying to just be with the troops. I forget what her name was, but she was trying to participate in these little groups, was, like, forming out, like, little pockets of people. I said, oh, look. I said, Sharon, look. Look at the people, how they're forming. She said, yeah, we need to get out of here. So I didn't know if it was going to turn into a riot or if it was going to turn into something later on in the day. I was a nervous wreck. I said, I don't want nobody's kids to get hurt with me. So we. We loaded up our kids. They said, well. The girl said, well, we were supposed to go to Niagara Falls that Saturday. She said, well, your things will be at the church when you get back, so you need to find a place to go. She said, I got a lot of stress. It's like, well, what about us? We're here from Cleveland with a lot of kids, and we have a lot of stress, no place to go. She said, well, your things are mature. So we got back to the church and they had packed up our things and set them out in the lobby. And this guy that was, you know, his wife was not around. I don't know where she was. She was the pastor. He says, nobody tells me where to stay. I stay in whatever neighborhood I want to stay in. And I. And it better not bother me. They done broke windows. And this is what he's telling me after we've, you know, like, oh, man, this is not good. So we loaded up the girls and we got. We found this. The guy in the park. He was with the. He was married to a white lady. I guess she was. I don't know if she was Canadian or what. But anyway, he says, what are you guys doing here? He said, I said, the same thing you are. I said, well, we're about to leave. We need to find some place to stay. So he knew, evidently, this was our angel. And I said, this was our angel that came into our path because we had to get out of there. He says, well, come. I have a place. You know, my wife and I, we were just here walking to see what was going on because it was a celebration weekend. He said, so follow me home. So he found out he was a pharmacist and he had a practice, and he lived in his gorgeous house. And so he took us to his house and we found housing. We found Hampton Inn that knew. We evidently had a problem because they gave us back to back rooms. And we slipped the girls in and said, you gotta be quiet, and we just need to get out of here and get through this. So we went to Niagara Falls the next day. We got through the night, and I have not been back to that area since. Shortly after, there was a bad storm that went through there. A tornado went through there.

Dana Aritonovich [01:05:03] I do recall that vaguely.

Jean Cotton [01:05:05] Yeah. And I said, see? So that's when I realized that racial issues still exist. And I know they still do. Even on my job, I know they do. I just don't play into it. I just take it one day at a time. But we got out of that ordeal and I thank God. I said, never will I sell that many cookies again to take anybody anywhere. Because every time we sold cookies, we always went somewhere. We went to Washington, D.C., one year and we went to Disney World with them. When we took them to Disney World, it was. They were selling the cookies so they could get to go Mount Pleasant area. That's what the team was. The troop was in the Mount Pleasant area. And so this year we went to Niagara Falls. And that was the last of my Girl Scout ventures because of race.

Dana Aritonovich [01:05:55] But before then, like, did you interact with it with a lot of white people when you were younger, like teenager or just didn't experience any racism from that?

Jean Cotton [01:06:04] I didn't experience it because Ravenna was different. I don't know, it was just. And it might be why I had to. I was able to develop an era of not looking at race because my mom is still kind of like, she's from Mississippi, her and my dad and he, she tells my daughters all the time. She said, well, I'm gonna marry this, I'm dating this white girl. She said, well, you need to stay in your own race. She said, well, mom, what you think? I said, you know what, you have to live with him. If you love him and he loves you, I have no beefs. So I just kind of like become neutral. I just cannot, you know, because what's good for you is not good for me or what's good for me. It may not be good for you. And it's about your happiness, it's about how you feel. So I never really experienced racism until, you know, really was involved in it until it was that ordeal with Buffalo, NY 86. And then when I went with my husband to Alabama, the water fountains were still there and you used the back door. And I was a little bit rebellious anyway, so I said, well, you know what, I'll stand outside. I'm not going in the back door. And I went in the front door and my mother in law flipped out. She says, baby, I said, you know what, I'll just stay outside. You don't need to be up there. I said, well, why? Because I'm from the North. I didn't know. She said, no-no, no, you have to come back here. I said, you know what, I'll just stand outside and wait. Said, I'm not going back to town with you no more. I'm sorry, what year was this? This was like in 69, 70. So I just kind of blew off racing. If I saw something that was going to be a problem, I either Stared around it or either I just blew it off. I didn't play into. Okay, well, I think I, I hope I helped you.

Dana Aritonovich [01:08:07] Yeah, actually like the, Especially that the, you know, what you just said about Alabama. Because I know a lot of. After World War II, there were so many people living up from. From the South, Black and white. And a lot of the, the attitudes of the. Of Jim Crow for Black and white came up here because Cleveland was known as Alabama North. So that's it. And there's a few other people I've talked to who either their parents came from the South or they came here when they were very small. They went back a couple times to visit and they had that. So they were just like, you know, yeah, there was racism up here, but it wasn't as it was.

Jean Cotton [01:08:41] Right. You're right. And it wasn't in your face. You knew certain areas, like even like Murray Hill. I know I need to go on Murray Hill. Well, it's not. No, because I used to go to the hospital back there and I- Murray Hill and Collinwood, Five Points, Parma, Lakewood. I just didn't go to those places. But now I don't have a problem with it. I go where I'm going and I come on back. But you just knew where to go and where not to go. And if you went, you were in before dark. So, you know, you had your boundaries, you know, when you stepped your boundaries. So that might be another issue as far as me not, you know, becoming so obvious, you know, knowing so much about race issues. Because my dad was very- He took us where he wanted us to go. He dropped us off if I wanted to go 105th and Cedar. He took us over there and there was a skating rink there, Pla-Mor, back in the day. And he dropped us off and we went in, we skated and he said, be outside. We come out when it was over. He was there to pick us up. If we wanted to go to the show Hippodrome downtown, he took us downtown. So I never really rode the bus a lot. So he took us where he wanted to take us where we wanted to go. He dropped us off, he said, I'll be back at 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock. Stand be standing here and I'll pick you up. Sounds more or less guarded.

Dana Aritonovich [01:10:14] Makes sense because he came from the South and he maybe was afraid of what might happen.

Jean Cotton [01:10:17] There could be a lot of it. And also being, as I said, the clergy and he just believed in his family, not strolling all over the neighborhood and all over. You know, we went to school right in our neighborhood and I experienced busing with my kids and I didn't like it because I really was kind of like stirred up some issues in me with it as far as bus the teachers or do what the schools that you're taking the kids to do that same curriculum in this school and then you won't have to bus them. And that may have been. I don't know why they. I don't even see any, I didn't see any results. The kids were riding across town mingling with kids they were going to mingle with anyway. You know, like West 25th, you're going to leave Mount Pleasant and go to West 25th. Eventually, somewhere along the line they're going to either work with them or they're going to either party with them or either going to college with them, you know, so they really wasn't busing. If you want to bus them, take them to Lakewood and then that was busing. But you riding the kid out to the airport to go to a public school and he's tired when he gets there and he's sleepy and he's not, not paying attention. Then you ride him back home. So he's on the bus in traffic all day, he's tired, he's got to come in and do his homework. After he eats, he's dead tired. And I didn't see any results. I didn't see any sense in it. Just a waste of money. So a lot of things that went on in Cleveland trying to say they were integrating and it was just a waste of time. You really want to integrate? Just do what you need to do.

Dana Aritonovich [01:12:01] Make everything equal so you don't-

Jean Cotton [01:12:03] Right.

Dana Aritonovich [01:12:03] That's something. Actually the class I'm taking right now is about the Jim Crow era. And when we talk about like Plessy versus Ferguson, making it separate, it's like, well, that's fine. But nothing was ever equal. And Cleveland, we had kind of a reputation as being, you know, one of the more like open-minded cities as far as race and things like that go. But other things that I've read, like when I've done a lot of research with the Call and Post and like old issues, the Plain Dealer and stuff and it's just that was not really the reality of it. And one of the things they said in the early '60s when they were talking about desegregation and they were saying, well, you know, the segregation that we have in Cleveland, it's not because it wasn't like in the South, where it was legalized. Like, you cannot sit next to a white kid in school.

Jean Cotton [01:12:47] You cannot.

Dana Aritonovich [01:12:48] You can't drink from the same fountain. It was legalized down there. Here, the school officials were saying, well, it's not that we have Black-only schools. It's just that they go to the school in the neighborhood. The neighborhood's all Black. And that's what it was. So that's how they got around saying, well, they're segregated. But. Well, that's- That might be true, but you're not giving them the same amount of, you know, they don't have good facilities to learn, and they don't have the same books. They don't have.

Jean Cotton [01:13:12] Right.

Dana Aritonovich [01:13:12] No teachers who are maybe as qualified.

Jean Cotton [01:13:14] Right. Or don't care. Just getting a paycheck. And it was a lot of that. You know, the teachers. If you had a dedicated teacher, they were good. Because my daughter, I remember, had one teacher. Her name was Gradovec. And Janet just didn't like this woman. She just, you know, Janet, she's mean. She doesn't like me. She got a needle-nose this, that and the other. She'd come home and say different things about the woman that she just don't like me. So I went to the school, and I was very involved with my kids in school. And I met Ms. Gradovec, and she said. And everything Janet said about her, she came up to requirements as far as in looks. But we talked and she said, janet has potential. Janet is lazy. And Janet. And I can. I see it in Janet. And she can get around. Whatever she can get around, she will not do it. She said, I'm gonna stay on her. I said, I'm gonna stay on her until she leaves my class. And so I went home. I said, janet, I heard you were just lazy. And Ms. Cordova, I love Ms. Cordovic, so you may as well love her, too. So you may as well get in there. Janet brought a C up to an A and she got to be, you know, but had I not gone then, you know, she would have just probably went on about. So every teacher they didn't like, I always went to see what they didn't like. Now I do have. I had some issues with my son. You know, he was quiet, and he was, you know, not a social person. So they picked on him. So he was always getting suspended about nothing. So I said, don't suspend him. Don't send him home. Not one more day, because you give him freedom while I'm at work to roam all over the neighborhood. And he gets home when I get home, I don't know what he's doing or what he's done or where he's been. I said, so the next time you want to suspend him for something silly, send him to a room and let him sit in that room. So I started a room. They started a room of the detention room, and he stayed in that room. And that teacher became a friend of mine, an English teacher. He played the Martin Luther King story, the Eye on the Prize, all kinds of stuff. So when you went in that room, he said, I'm so tired of going in that room talking about listening to Martin Luther King because he was a baby when Martin Luther King was shot, killed. And he know more about Martin Luther King than I do. He said, every time I go in there, Mr. Newsom plays this movie. He said, Mr. Newsom don't know nothing about Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King. I said, well, stop and look at it. He said, if you miss a part, it's okay. You go in another day, you're going to catch that part or you stay in there. So he finally got to a point. He said, you know, it was a learning area. So I said, make the kids go. Don't give them that freedom of sending them home. Plus, the average parent's not home, so keep him at the school and then tell me and I'll come get him. So I, you know, kind of was able to handle that. But Janet, if the teacher, she, you know, they knew she was lazy. She didn't feel like doing her work. She just didn't do it. She's the only kid I know that has went through all of high school, her 12th grade year and didn't take gym in the 12th grade and graduated because that was a requirement. She didn't. She went to the gym room. She always had a problem with her foot or. Or a stomach ache or a headache. She was successful. I just don't like Jim. But she's drama. She's a drama a major. And she went to school of Art. So she finished. And Felicia went to the school of Law and you know, Martin Luther King. And she was a social person. She loved group get in groups. She was a follower, not a leader. So I finally got through her. Once I got done with Felicia in high school, then the busing era ended. So I had three kids all over the city. And it was really hard. It was tough. And I'm trying to go to school and trying to work and trying to make ends meet and you know, their father went back to Alabama, so he's been in Alabama since we separated in 78, I think it was. So. Story of my life. But, I mean, I could sit here all day, and I guess things will come up. But I guess I hope I've.

Dana Aritonovich [01:17:54] No, it's been very, very interesting, actually. I've gotten a lot of notes here and some really good quotes from you, so I appreciate your time.

Jean Cotton [01:17:59] I hope you can do something with it. Definitely.

Dana Aritonovich [01:18:02] Thank you so much.

Jean Cotton [01:18:02] But it's always good to talk with someone about the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's where our history is in the past, and we build on that today. And if we don't continue to build and live and grow and like I heard you say, you know, you're not good with technology, you may as well get better.

Dana Aritonovich [01:18:21] I try what I can, but, like, I'm- I'm 36, and my generation didn't grow up having to use computers or any of that.

Jean Cotton [01:18:26] Well, mine didn't grow up at all.

Dana Aritonovich [01:18:28] Used to it. And then when I went back to college after taking eight years off, and all of a sudden there's a requirement to take just a basic class to go graduate, I was like, oh, my God, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm better at it now. But people who are, like, even five years younger than I am, they grew up doing all that stuff, which, you

Jean Cotton [01:18:44] know, that's true, but I didn't grow up with it at all. Yeah, see, they were doing. I mean, we had shorthand stenography. That's a thing. In the past, typing, I didn't have carpal tunnel. Now I got carpal tunnels. And so now I'm. And when I got familiar with the emailing, then they introduced the Facebook and the YouTube. So I have to do all this. And that's one reason I enjoy working where I am, because I have to learn it. If I don't, and you'd be surprised now the system's just too slow. They're so slow, it's crazy. So that's the way the world is going. Technology. And I thought I'd never lived to be involved in it. Stuff was just like, 1, 2, 3. Oh, it's so hard for me to sit still.

Dana Aritonovich [01:19:32] I know.

Jean Cotton [01:19:33] That's probably why I can't think, because I'm used to-

Dana Aritonovich [01:19:37] Well, thank you so much.

Jean Cotton [01:19:38] All right. Okay. Well, I'm glad I was able to help.

Dana Aritonovich [01:19:41] Absolutely.

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