Abstract
This is an interview conducted with Frank Lucas, Parish Council President of Our Lady of Perpetual Help Lithuanian parish. The interview begins with talk of the formation of the parish in 1929 to accommodate the growing Lithuanian community in the Collinwood and Euclid neighborhoods. The first part of the interview traces the location of the parish in the early years along with a growing parish community. In 1953 a new church was dedicated and the school and auditorium were built later. As the interview continues talk of parish life and Lithuanian culture continues.In the later part of the interview discussion is over architectural details of the church, merging parishes and balancing Lithuanian identity.
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Interviewee
Lucas, Frank (interviewee)
Interviewer
Valore, Kenneth (interviewer); Lanese, James (interviewer)
Project
Sacred Landmarks
Date
9-15-2011
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
60 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Frank Lucas Interview, 2011" (2011). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 127015.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/377
Transcript
Frank Lucas [00:00:01] Okay.
Ken Valore [00:00:03] My name is Ken Valore. I’m joined by Jim Lanese and Frank Lucas to conduct an interview for the Center for Public History and Digital Humanities to document the history of Our Lady of Perpetual Help Church, which is now called St. Casimir’s. The interview is being held at Our Lady of Perpetual Help Church, located on Neff Road in Cleveland. And, Frank, could you state your name and your affiliation with the congregation?
Frank Lucas [00:00:40] My name is Frank Lucas, and currently I am the president of the parish council of the parish and a longtime member since birth.
Ken Valore [00:00:52] Okay, can you give us how long has this congregation been in Cleveland?
Frank Lucas [00:00:59] The parish was started in, I believe, 1929. It was an offshoot of the old St. George’s Church, which was the original Lithuanian, one of the original Lithuanian parishes in Cleveland. And as urban sprawl was created, even back then, many of the people that belonged to St. George’s which was at, I believe, 66th and Superior, in the 60s in Superior were moving out into the Collinwood area and a little bit farther east into Euclid, and they wanted a church closer to their homes, closer to their work. And a group of people from St. George’s got together, and all, all of them Lithuanian, most of them, I would say 99.5% of them Lithuanian, asked for permission from the diocese to form a new parish, and it was granted. And I can’t give you the exact dates, but at some point in 1929, the parish was formed. They met for their first two or three meetings at the Slovenian home in the Collinwood area here on Holmes Avenue and adopted their bylaws and adopted their charter. It was presented to the diocese and it was accepted by the bishop at that time. This particular church construction was started in 1950 and was completed in 1953. The old church, which sits out in the. Used to sit where the parking lot is right now, was, I believe, and I’m not sure, but I believe it was an old restaurant tavern called the Hill Grove Inn. And it was bought by the parish as their first permanent home and served as the parish church until this building was built and completed in 1953. In fact, my parents were married in the old Hill Grove Inn, and I was baptized there.
Ken Valore [00:03:21] That’s kind of unusual. So who made up the laity and the Clergy? What was the economics of the parishioners?
Frank Lucas [00:03:44] They were all working people. The interesting part, we’re just talking just prior to the Depression. So when they decided. By the time they decided to do this, the Depression had hit, and they were- They were kind of scrambling, you know, kind of scrambling for money. But they, you know, they maintained their solidarity. And one of the things that you have to remember is that many of the people that came from Lithuania here in their country were doctors, lawyers, very well-educated people. And unfortunately, much of their educational degrees and much of what they had didn’t transfer over to this country. So you had doctors working as railroad workers, you had lawyers that were, you know, that were factory workers. So, I mean, there was, you know, the educational level of these people was extremely high. And their commitment, their commitment to preserving their culture, preserving their language was. And preserving, you know, and preserving their religious beliefs from, you know, from within the Lithuanian culture was very, very strong. You know, I mean, a testament to that is that since Our Lady Perpetual Help was created in 1929, there were only three pastors up until when the church was merged with St. George’s two years ago. But the history of Our Lady Perpetual Health had only three pastors in all of those years.
Ken Valore [00:05:37] Were all the pastors Lithuanian?
Frank Lucas [00:05:39] They were all Lithuanian. And my belief, my understanding, I’m pretty sure - because I kind of looked through some of the records yesterday before I talked to you - all three of them were born there. The one who was really instrumental in building this building and the church and everything across the street was Father Juozas Angelaitis. And he took over for the original pastor, who was Father Karaszewskis. I’ll give you those spellings. They’re in the book. And Father Karaszewskis was the original pastor. In fact, my dad and his two brothers were his favorite
alter boys. I mean, they did everything for him. And he started to have failing health around 1939 and asked the diocese to relieve him. And they brought in Father Angelaitis from a church in Akron, and he came in and was appointed pastor. And his, you know, his first thought was, we’ve got to get, you know. In fact, he was the one that actually bought, if I’m not mistaken, and I’d have to check it, but I believe he was the one that actually bought the Hillgrove Inn. There was no. There was no permanent home. They kind of- They did hold some services at the Slovenian Home on Holmes Avenue. But he was the one that really was instrumental in getting the, you know, in getting the Hill Grove property. I believe I’d have to double check that. And it was Father Angelaitis who said, we need, you know, we need to build. We need to build our own church. Because the parish was growing. The Lithuanian community was. It was growing. There were a Lot of Lithuanians migrating to the Cleveland area. Many of them migrated to Cleveland. Many more of them migrated to Chicago. There are strong Lithuanian communities in Boston, in Baltimore. But the two in Cleveland and Chicago are. I would think during the ’50s and ’60s were probably the largest. We’re probably the largest. And then Father Angelaitis decided to build this church. And he did it with guts and fortitude. And he scraped and begged and borrowed. He got. Many of the parishioners themselves actually worked on the construction. There’s probably. There were probably 50 or 60 of the parishioners that actually helped in the construction of this building. Both of my grandparents at that time, well, my dad’s dad had already passed away and my maternal grandfather. Both of my grandparents grandfathers are founding members of this parish. They’re listed in the register as being at that meeting in 1929. And this building was completed in ’53 and stood by itself for quite a while. And I really don’t remember- I’d have to look back in the history of the parish as to when the school was, school and auditorium were finally added on. But I remember as a kid when this building was first being built, I had no idea. And I’ve been a member of the Lithuanian choir here for 16, 17 years. And the first time I went up into that choir lot, I went, my goodness, I’ve been up here before. I remember my grandfather Angelaitis took my- In the old days, the priests would travel to homes and they would- And Father Angelaitis was in our- He would come and visit us once a month, once every two or three weeks. And we’d sit and we’d talk about- And he was telling us about the building of the church. And I remember when this was all a dirt floor and none of this had been put in and you could still see the girders and beams. And we stood up in the choir loft and looked down onto this dirt floor. And I remember that. And I couldn’t have been more than four, three or four years old, but that picture just stood in my mind. And being up there and looking down in this large building. And the first time I walked into that choir loft in 1995, I went, I’ve seen this before. I’ve had this vision before, and it was really, really amazing. But Father Angelaitis was- It didn’t matter. It didn’t matter if you gave a dollar, if you gave- And you guys will remember, I think tax stamps when we were kids that you would get for purchases, he would collect tax stamps, he would collect box tops, he Would go and he had a pickup truck, and he would scourge the neighborhood, scrounge around the neighborhood for anything that was being torn out. Old water pipe, lead pipe, hot water heaters, old discarded appliances. And where that parking lot is right now, there stood a mountain of scrap that I’m telling you, was almost as high as this church. And people in the neighborhood used to complain about it because they thought it was an eyesore. But it’s all of that scrap that built the rest of this complex and helped keep this parish alive.
Ken Valore [00:11:49] Was there an influx of people after the Second World War?
Frank Lucas [00:11:55] Yes. Yeah. But the other part of that problem is, after the Second World War, you also had, you know, you had the Baby Boomers, who- Their goal was to move on, have a better life. And in many cases, the sons of the Lithuanian families that were in this area, as they got married, the daughters, as they got married, they moved to Euclid, they moved to Eastlake, they moved to Willoughby, which is how, you know, and as many of the ethnic people from this area were, I mean, you know, the migration of the Slovenians was the same way. Not so much the Italians, too. You know, although the Italians maintained their stronghold- the Italian neighborhood maintained its stronghold in Collinwood for a very, very, very long time. And still, in fact, Holy Redeemer is still a very viable parish in the Collinwood neighborhood. But, you know, that hurt to some degree because the kids moved away. And as their kids moved away, the emphasis on preserving the culture, preserving the language was lessened. I know it affected me to some degree. I mean, I didn’t speak English until I was just about 4 years old, and then, you know, we didn’t have any Lithuanian spoken in our house by the time I was school age. My parents said they wanted to make sure that, you know, that I was Americanized. And, you know, they asked because we lived in a double home, and my grandparents lived downstairs, and my parents lived upstairs, and I lived everywhere. And my grandfather was from- My maternal grandfather was from Lithuania. My maternal grandmother was not, but spoke it fluently. And, you know, my mom and dad both worked, so they were gone all day. And so the first language I learned was Lithuanian because it was easier for my grandmother to communicate with her husband. And, you know, but by the time. You know, by the time I got to be four years old, you know, my parents said, you know, this kid’s gonna start school pretty soon, and he’s gonna have to- He’s gonna have to learn English. And so that kind of cut off. But, you know, that kind of thing prevailed. And from the, you know, into the mid-’50s, into the ‘60s, where, you know, with the spread, with the urban spread, a lot of the, A lot of the, you know, a lot of the families my dad’s age and then the Baby Boomer families, unless they were fortunate enough to be in a home where the culture was as important as everything else, the language was lost and a lot of the traditions were lost. And yet there are some that, you know, that have maintained it. Were they using Lithuanian at church? Yes, at that time. Yeah. Yeah. There’s always been a Lithuanian Mass here. Even today. Our 10 o’ clock mass on Sunday mornings is in Lithuania. And you can even, you know, we have Lithuanian language classes here. I was going to ask that. Yeah, we do have Lithuanian language classes here. We do have a Lithuanian school for parents that want to keep the culture and keep the language. And they meet on Saturday mornings. Every Saturday morning. Many of the Lithuanian-based cultural activities are centered in this parish. The Lithuanian choir is here, which I’m a member of. And you know, it’s not your average little church choir. I mean, we’ve been to the Vatican and sang. We tour the country singing in Lithuanian and Latin, you know, both secular and sacred. We’re about 35, 40 strong, give or take a year. Many of the Lithuanian dance groups are here. There is a children’s, there’s a children’s dance ensemble that meets every Saturday morning. And on Sundays the Lithuanian basketball teams, local Lithuanian basketball clubs, meet and play in the gym. We call it after Sunday Mass, we call it Cavuti, which means coffee hour. And everybody after 10 o’clock mass goes down to the cafeteria and sits and has coffee. And everybody, every Sunday, everybody, there’s a different organization that provides the coffee and the pastries and the little sandwiches and, and it’s just to keep, you know, to keep the culture alive. The Lithuanian Credit Union, even on Lithuanian Credit Union, Taupa, on East 185th, has an office that they open on Sunday mornings for that coffee hour. So people want to go in and, you know, they want to make a deposit or they need $100 to go to dinner that afternoon, they can, you know. They can do and conduct business, can conduct their banking.
Ken Valore [00:17:31] Isn’t there another Lithuanian restaurant or something?
Frank Lucas [00:17:35] There is just on 185th, really within walking distance from the Lithuanian Club, which has a very minimal membership fee, but it’s still a private club for people of Lithuanian heritage. And they have been influxed probably over the last 20 years. I mean, they had a wonderful restaurant there. And then, you know, again, with the migration and the transition of the neighborhood and people moving out, different cultures moving in, making this a much more diversified neighborhood. They’ve struggled a little bit, but the woman who runs it now has really made a huge effort, and it’s really working. You can go there Sundays after Mass. She has a Lithuanian buffet in the restaurant from I think it’s 11 or 11:30 to 1. And it’s traditional Lithuanian food as well as some American stuff, you know, roast beef and chicken and stuff like that. But, yeah, the Lithuanian Club is another cultural center. And other than this parish and that club, we’re the last of the breed as far as the Lithuanians in this neighborhood.
Ken Valore [00:18:53] Yeah, I remember from a friend of mine that Lithuanian community is pretty tightly…
Frank Lucas [00:19:02] They’re very tight. And I make no excuses. We are a very clannish- We are very, very clannish. And it’s one of the reasons- I think it’s one of the reasons that the language has survived as well as it has and that it survived within the community as it exists today is because of that tightness, because of so many of us were brought up with that passion and that respect for who we are and where we came from. You won’t find one- Let me say this. You will not find one, one person in this parish that doesn’t consider themselves an American first. They are God and country. Many of them served in the war. My family, most of my family is in Chicago. All of those- All of the boys in that family all served. Some of them served in World War II, and all of them served in the U.S. armed forces and are proud of it. So you will not find anybody here, whether they speak hardly no English at all or completely bilingual, that they consider themselves Americans first. But they are. They will always tell you they’re Lithuanian Americans. They are Lithuanian Americans, and they are very, very proud of who they are and where they came from.
Ken Valore [00:20:28] Is there a volleyball group, too?
Frank Lucas [00:20:31] Yeah, there are some volleyball clubs, yes. Volleyball is- That’s another thing. In fact, my cousin in Chicago was coach of the Chicago teams, and he was blessed with five girls in his marriage, and every one of them played volleyball. It wasn’t like they had a choice, but for fortunately, they were- All five girls are pretty athletic. In fact, the youngest is my goddaughter, and they were here not all. Well, probably longer ago than I thought. They have basketball tournaments. They have volleyball tournaments where different teams from different cities come in and participate. And sometimes they’re large enough that the hall can’t handle them. I mean, we’ve had a couple basketball sports tournaments. In Lithuanian, it’s called sports, meaning festival. And they have these sports festivals that are basketball and volleyball, and they’re so large that the parish hall can’t handle them. And they’ve had to rent out the sports complex at Euclid High School. The last time the volleyball tournament was here, they needed to rent out the sports facilities at Richmond Heights High School in the education complex there. Because, I mean, we get teams from Cleveland, from Chicago, from Baltimore, from Rochester, from Boston, from Ontario. Large Lithuanian communities still in the Toronto-St. Catherine’s-Hamilton area. We have- My wife used to joke with me. She passed away a year and a half ago. She used to joke she was not Lithuanian, but she would say, you people are everywhere. No matter where you go, you people are everywhere. And for our 20th wedding anniversary, I surprised her and I took her to San Antonio, Texas, for 20th anniversary, town that I love. I was doing some research on the Alamo, in fact, and we’re sitting in the hotel room, and I just happened to grab the phone book, and I opened the phone book, and I just always see if I can spot a Lithuanian name or something like that. And I open this phone book, and here, in big, bold print, Texans of Lithuania. And I showed this to my wife, and she said, you people are- She goes, you even have them in Texas? I said, yes. Yeah, yeah, we’re everywhere. Every five years, we have a huge song festival where Lithuanian choirs from all over the world come together. We just did one last summer in Toronto, and five years prior to that, we did one in Chicago, and in between, there was actually one in Lithuania, but there were like 35 or 40 choirs that participated in this, and there were five from Lithuania, there were two from England, all over Canada, all over the United States. And in places where you would not think that there would be Lithuanian communities, like Kansas City and Tulsa, you know, and West Palm Beach and, you know, and, you know, those song festivals, they bring together about 11 or 1200 voices, and they’re usually held in small hockey arenas because it’s so they can be accommodated, you know, so, you know, that’s why I- That’s why this parish is even in its present structure, is so important to the Lithuanian community today, is that it is still for Clevelanders and for Lithuanian Americans in Cleveland, this is the center of their cultural activity.
Ken Valore [00:24:42] Do you get- Even though the people, some people have moved away, do they still come?
Frank Lucas [00:24:48] Yes. But in all honesty, it’s dwindling. You know? I can tell you three, four, five years ago, the 10 o’clock Mass, this building would be- This- This place would be full. I mean, it would be full. There’d be 350, 400, you know, 12 o’clock, 12 o’clock midnight Mass at Christmas and the Easter Sunday- We don’t do Easter sunrise anymore. But when we did, they would be standing in the aisles. I mean, they would put up folding chairs, and then there would still be standing people. But it’s- It’s dwindling now, and it’s just- It’s just- I think the attrition of people moving away, it’s harder to make that trip because they’re moving far. Some people are moving out of town. And I would say that 10 o’ clock mass is probably down to about 200, 250, which is still good, Which, I mean, which is still. Which is still a very strong representation. But, you know, we found that even, you know, even being on the parish council, what’s the hardest part, the hardest part is getting the younger the children and the children’s children to come back to stay a part of the parish. You know, some of them have. They haven’t abandoned the language, but it’s not that important to them anymore, and that’s okay, you know, I mean, you know, everybody has to live their life. But it becomes harder and harder when, you know, you say to people, you know, the parish really needs your support. We, you know, we really need. We want to keep. We want to keep the Lithuanian community strong. And, you know, they say, well, you know, it’s January and I live in Mentor, and I have a church that I don’t have to pull my car out if I don’t want to. I can. You know, I can. And if I do have to pull my car out in 5 inches of snow, all I have to do is drive a mile or a half a mile, as opposed to driving 15 or 20 miles, you know, into here. Yeah, it’s difficult. It’s difficult. And there aren’t that many- There aren’t that many of us that actually live in the community anymore now. I mean, many live close. Euclid, Highland Heights. Our choir director lives in Highland Heights. Many of our families live in Highland Heights. But, I mean, a lot of- We get in our choir alone. There are people that come from Hudson, they come from Independence, they come from Brecksville, you know, because it’s important to them. You know, it’s important to them. So we’re just, you know, we’re just scattered. I mean, I remember as a young boy in Chicago, the Lithuanian neighborhoods in Chicago, it was like being in Lithuania. I mean, you’d go to the corner store and all the signs in the store saying, ground meat 29 cents a pound was all in Lithuanian. I mean, everything. You know, and I mean, you never. You’d walk down the street and you wouldn’t- You would not hear any- You know, and the days of - and even in Chicago - the days of those neighborhoods are gone because even the Lithuanian community, the majority of the Lithuanian community in Chicago, is now way southwest of the city in an area called Lamont, Illinois, which is actually in DuPage County. It’s not even in Cook county, but there’s a huge Lithuanian church and cultural center and mission that was built out there, and they do two masses on Sunday, and it’s wall to wall.
Ken Valore [00:28:39] Can you tell us something about, you know, the church structure? I mean, is this the decor, et cetera? Is this. Would this be typical to something you.
Frank Lucas [00:28:51] Might find the wood carvings are, you see, are Lithuanian. Yeah, all of these wood carvings are Lithuanian. They were done by Lithuanian artisans here, or I believe a lot of it came from Lithuania. I have - and as long as you return it to me - this book which gives you a history of the parish up until 1979, which is the 50th anniversary, but you can take a look at this picture and see how the church actually looked before all this, all of this was brought in. All of these wood carvings and stuff were brought in by Father Tioskas, who was the last pastor of Our Lady of Perpetual Help. He had all this work done. And there are- There’s- There is information in there about the construction of this stuff. When I was the- The only thing left over, the only thing that remained from the original church is Our Lady of Perpetual Help on the back wall there. But even then, when I was a boy, that aura above her head, and if you can see in that inner ring, it’s all amber. Amber is the stone of Lithuania. That was part of the new woodwork and the new decor. There were, where these statues here appear, there were paintings of different saints. All of these in the four corners. In the four corners of the church are all representations of Our Lady from different villages in different areas of Lithuania. Our Lady of Vilnius. Vilnius is the capital of Lithuania. Over here, I think, is Our Lady of Shilova, which was a- And, boy, I’d really have to go back to my history, but it was a somewhat of a miracle in the Lithuanian village of Shilova. And it had to deal with at one point in Lithuanian history. And, you know, Lithuania is predominantly a Catholic country, but in the 1500s, there was a battle in Lithuania, and, you know, the Poles came in and the Lithuanians pushed them out. And then the Poles came back and the Lithuanians pushed them out. And this went on for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, you know, so, you know, so. But at one point, for about, I guess about 100 years, the Lutherans came in and were predominantly the rulers of the country and suppressed Catholicism. And there were people in this little Lithuanian village of Shilova that buried their artifacts when all of this happened. And the town and the church that was in the village apparently was just razed and burned and destroyed by the people that were coming in and was turned into farmland. And then when the Lutherans were vanquished from the area and the Catholics came back, they dug up and all of this stuff was there untouched, you know, so they considered it a miracle. And I think that’s the story. But all of these are representations of villages in Lithuania. And in fact, that one there is, Raja is the capital of Matthew.
Ken Valore [00:33:03] Oh, really?
Frank Lucas [00:33:04] Yeah, yeah. So, but, yeah, you know, the. I mean, the. All of the stained glass that you see is original. All of it. All of the stained glass is original.
Ken Valore [00:33:22] And was that from here or from here?
Frank Lucas [00:33:26] As far as I know is from here. I can’t tell you about the guys up there. I don’t know who they are. Every once in a while when we sing. Every once in a while when we sing in the choir, you can see some handwriting on the base of that statue up there, and I just can’t make it out. And I keep saying to myself, I’ve got to bring myself a pair of binoculars the next time we rehearse up there so I can get. So I can finally figure out who these guys are.
Ken Valore [00:34:09] Now, are these- I could see on this side, they’re men. Are they men on both sides?
Frank Lucas [00:34:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are.
Ken Valore [00:34:21] Probably a different thing.
Frank Lucas [00:34:22] I would have to think so. Yeah, I would have to think so.
Ken Valore [00:34:28] The stained-glass windows, the designs are those kind of Lithuanian designs?
Frank Lucas [00:34:36] You know, I really don’t know. I would tend to say no. Although if you take a look at the structure of the figures, how angular they are, and you look at the angular designs of the statues here, possibly. You know? Possibly. That’s- Up there on the left, that’s St. Casimir.
Ken Valore [00:35:14] Is it kind of ironic?
Frank Lucas [00:35:17] Well, I mean, he was always up there, you know, and I, you know, I mean, we were- It’s not, it’s not a name that the parishioners chose for the merged parish. It was not a name that they chose that they voted on. It was not- It was not a name that they selected, but it was the name that was selected by the diocese. So now we have this. Since then, we now have this larger statue of Saint Casimir. So, you know, I mean, our, you know, there is a- In the Lithuanian culture, there is a huge, huge devotion to Our Lady, to Mary. It’s a huge part of the belief of the Catholic tradition because you can still, if you come here at 10 o’clock Mass and if you get here at quarter to 10, a lot of the older Lithuanian ladies- In fact, I was just in Chicago and met my family for Mass at the Lithuanian Mission in Lemont, and there was my aunt still sitting there before Mass, praying the rosary. And you’ll see, you’ll see the older ladies still sitting here at quarter of- They’ll get here at 9, 30, quarter to 10, and they’ll sit there and they’ll pray the rosary. So, I mean, the devotion to Mary is huge in the Lithuanian Catholic faith.
Jim Lanese [00:36:56] Just to clarify, right now, this church is a merger of-
Frank Lucas [00:37:03] St. George’s and Our Lady of Perpetual Help. When all of this was going down about three years ago, we were notified that among the four Collinwood parishes, which was Our Lady of Perpetual Help, St. Jerome’s, St. Mary’s on Holmes Avenue, and Holy Redeemer, one of them was going to have to close, one of them was going to have to go away. Well, of course, everybody at every parish became up and, well, you’re not closing me. You’re not closing me. And I have to tell you that the people here really didn’t feel that we were going to be the one affected. We were certainly concerned about it. But we thought, you know, I mean, we found out a lot of interesting things during, you know, during the, during this process. You know, I mean, we all knew that our congregations were dwindling. We all knew that they were small. And a lot of us kind of assumed that all of us were kind of operating in the red and they were going to pick the one that was most in the red and that was the one that was going to go away. Well, you know, as we started to research stuff and as the other parishes started to research stuff, we started to realize that we’re all operating in the black. And the reason given to the merger was money. Well, now we’re all operating in the black, you know, and when the word came down that we were going to merge with St George and St. George’s was going to close, we all thought we dodged the bullet. And to some degree I think we have. The problem is, you know, and it doesn’t matter what church you’re talking about or what parish you’re talking about, there is always an animosity. And Lord knows Lithuanians can be- They are- We are an arrogant group of people. We just are. It is our nature. And I can’t say that there is, there was bad blood between St. George’s and Our Lady, but there was strife between the people that were loyal to St. George’s and people that were loyal to Our Lady. And, you know, Father Kioskis was dearly loved at this parish. Father Bacevice was dearly loved at St. George’s and it was a diocese decision to bring in Father Bacevice to run the new parish. And there’s been a period of adjustment. I think he’s handled it extremely well. He’s a really good man in a really unwinnable situation.
Ken Valore [00:40:34] So did you, I mean, did you pick up parishioners from St. George?
Frank Lucas [00:40:38] We picked- We did. But, you know, the thing with St. George is there, there weren’t that many parishioners to pick up. I mean, you know, the Lithuanian Mass would have 20 people at it or 13 people at it, you know? But we’ve managed to pick up families from the other closed churches in the area. Like, we’ve picked up some families from St. Williams, we picked up some families from St. Paul’s and, you know, it’s growing. But the problem is trying to serve two communities now. It’s hard and it’s really difficult. And we on the parish council realize how difficult this is because there is now a non-Lithuanian faction and factor in the operation of this parish. And it’s a really delicate balance. And it’s been, you know, it’s- It has not been- It’s not been an easy transition, you know, and as the parish, as this new parish diversifies and grows, it becomes increasingly more difficult. But it’s something that is there. It’s not going to go away. And the problem that I have is convincing the Lithuanian people that, you know, I mean, the attitude was, oh, we’re not Lithuanian anymore. We’re not this, we’re not that, we’re not- And that’s not the case. And my point to the community has always been, you can’t do that if you want this to survive, then you have to fight for it and you have to maintain your strength. Nobody says that you guys have to become blood brothers, but I said we have a parish here that is now becoming more diversified and we’re going to need to have a give and take between the non-Lithuanian people of this parish and the Lithuanian side. It is still, even to this day is still predominantly Lithuanian. But you know, Father Bacevice is trying very hard to meld those two communities. I’m not so sure that that can ever happen. I mean, I just, I don’t know. And it really has nothing to do with not wanting other people to join us. But the biggest part of the problem is all of our functions here that are Lithuanian-oriented are in Lithuanian. You know, our music concerts, our social gatherings, our celebrations, they’re all done in the language. They’re all, you know, they’re all done in the language. And, you know, people have said to me, you know, we don’t care, we don’t care if they come, but they’re not going to understand, you know. And so it’s very hard, you know. And then you got the other side where the new people are trying to establish a home, establish a faith base for themselves and they want to do stuff. And you get the Lithuanian side saying, well, you know, I don’t, you know, I don’t know if I want to do that. I, you know, you know, it’s, you know, it’s a, you know, the thing is for many of them, for many of the old timers, if it ain’t Lithuanian, I ain’t going to it, you know, and if it ain’t Slovak, I ain’t going to it. And if it ain’t Hungarian, I ain’t going to it. If it ain’t Czech, I’m not going to, you know, it’s just, you know, I mean, I mean, I think that’s part of the European culture that’s here, you know, I mean, there, you know, you know. So.
Ken Valore [00:44:47] Yeah, getting back to the church, the origin. Is that- Is there anything unique about it?
Frank Lucas [00:44:55] You know, I know very little about that except I can give you the name of the woman who is our choir director and she could probably tell you more. I mean, I do not believe the pipes- The pipes- I mean, the organ that you see, the unit upstairs just above the clock is an electric organ. I don’t think- I don’t think the pipes are used at all anymore because if they did when we sang up there, that thing would really rattle I mean, we’d feel the vibrations. I mean, that is from the original organ that was in the church.
Ken Valore [00:45:28] Okay. Yeah, I was curious about that. I guess the other question is, did you pick up any parishioners from St. Casimir?
Frank Lucas [00:45:48] Yeah, you know, I don’t- They- Well, I mean, they were really, really, really, really, really upset. And I- And, you know, and I don’t- And I don’t blame them. And I mean, it was one of the comments that I made when all of this was happening. And then the diocese decided to name this parish St. Casimir. And I went, what are you thinking? I mean, I mean, you know, you had all of the turmoil at St. Casimir’s over there off St. Clair, the Polish church, and these poor people, you know, they fenced off the church, and they were out there standing in the snow and the cold, you know, not going away. Then you take the name of their church and you give it to us now. Saint Casimir is the patron saint of Lithuania.
Ken Valore [00:46:41] Oh. Okay. I wouldn’t have thought he was the patron saint of- [crosstalk]
Frank Lucas [00:46:47] But here again, it’s that border war that kept, you know, you know, Poland invaded Lithuania and took it, and Lithuania came back and took part. But in fact, I was talking to my family in Chicago about this and I said, is St. Casimir. They said, no, St. Casimir is the patron saint of Lithuania, and he may very well be the patron saint of Poland. I don’t know. But apparently a lot of what happened and why this came about, and I’m not fresh on my Lithuanian history, but I don’t know if you’ve seen a lot of the cars around. In fact, there’s one on the back of my car. There’s a shield, a red shield. It just looks like a shield and it’s red. And it has this white modern depiction of a knight that is supposedly King Viteltas of Lithuania. And where the connection somehow comes in, and I’m not sure about this, is that he married a Polish princess during one of these border wars. And that’s where somewhere in there is where the connection comes in. I don’t. I don’t know.
Ken Valore [00:48:18] So what churches- I mean, what services does the church provide historically? I mean, you have a school.
Frank Lucas [00:48:26] Not anymore.
Ken Valore [00:48:27] Not anymore.
Frank Lucas [00:48:27] Not anymore, no. Father Kioskis closed the school in the early ’80s.
Ken Valore [00:48:33] Did they merge with some other school?
Frank Lucas [00:48:35] No, no, he just closed it. There is a daycare center here now that has been here for quite some time. Then they’re using a portion of the old school building. Obviously, we provide to the Lithuanian community. I mean, the basketball teams, the volleyball teams, the choir. The choir has a room in the school building. The different dance groups, both adult and youth, use that facility. We are this fall finally going to reestablish a Holy Name Society here at the parish, which has been dormant for years. Years, absolute years. Our plan is to structure different parish commissions for different aspects of parish life, one being parish life, another one being worship, and to try to try to get the community involved in parish life. You know, again, I know Father has some right to life groups and right to life things that he works with very closely. He now has a prayer hour once a week or once a month after one of the morning Masses. We obviously, and we talked about that, we had our parish council, our monthly parish council meeting on Tuesday. We want to offer a lot. We have a lot of doctors. We’ve got three, four dentists that are very active in the community and some doctors, and they’ve gotten together to form a health ministry, which we hope we can get that to grow and, you know, and become-
Ken Valore [00:50:44] Would that be for the parish?
Frank Lucas [00:50:46] For the parish. For the parish and surrounding area. If, you know, you know, if we can, you know, if we, you know, that people know that they can come here once a month, you know, not for medical exams or anything like that, but to know that if they have questions that there are people that they can go to. It’s an outreach program we want to do. I mean, there are a lot of- There are a lot of good ideas on that parish council. There are a lot of good ideas. The problem is the numbers. You know, if we all decided to do everything we wanted to do, the 10 of us would be burned out in six months, you know. You know, I mean, they’re just- There aren’t the number- First of all, there aren’t the numbers to support the service to begin with. You know, I mean, once we start drawing people that would use that service into the parish, then we’re there to be there for them and to supply it to them. But until we get the numbers to grow, it’s just really, really difficult.
Ken Valore [00:52:03] Obviously, the surrounding area has changed.
Frank Lucas [00:52:07] Mm hm.
Ken Valore [00:52:09] Has that had an impact? I mean, other than, other than lessening the number of people that physically live in the area?
Frank Lucas [00:52:22] Well, I mean, it certainly has impacted the Lithuanian people that, you know, that used to live in the area. But, you know, that migration started a long time ago. I mean, it started a long time ago. It is- That migration was not due to an influx of anybody else that was coming into this neighborhood. That really wasn’t- That really wasn’t the cause. Most of them moved on because they wanted a better life. They wanted a nicer home. They wanted a swimming pool in their backyard, you know. But it’s difficult in the fact that we do have a few African American families that we didn’t have before. I know Father and would like to grow that number because of, because of the ethnic diversity of the neighborhood and, you know, would really welcome, welcome them. We do welcome. We welcome anybody. I don’t care whether they’re black, white, purple, green, blue, polka dot. Everybody is welcome in this church. But because it still has that strong ethnic identity, Lithuanian identity, there are a lot of people that still - and I’m saying black and white - that tend to stay away because they still consider this a Lithuanian stronghold. And, you know, you’re in a Catch-22. You want to preserve the culture in all of its glory, and yet you want to grow and diversify within the neighborhood. And it’s like, wow, how do you do that? [laughs]
Ken Valore [00:54:19] Yeah. Right, right, right. Between a rock and a hard place.
Frank Lucas [00:54:23] Yeah.
Ken Valore [00:54:34] Any other information about the history that you want to add?
Frank Lucas [00:54:41] Not that I can think of. You know, if you want to take the time to- And the book is- If you want to look through it, I’m happy to lend it to you. It’s in both English and Lithuanian, and the back portion of it is the one that’s written in- You’ll find the English right away. But it has a lot of photographs in there of the old church and stuff that went on here. It’s a grand old lady. It really is. We love it. I mean, our community, I mean, absolutely loves this place. Absolutely loves it. And even during the transition, there was tremendous amount of bitterness.
Ken Valore [00:55:29] Have you ever been to Lithuania?
Frank Lucas [00:55:32] No, that’s the one thing that I have not done yet. And I better hurry up and do it. [laughs]
Ken Valore [00:55:38] I was kind of curious because, you know, the other day we were at St. Stanislaus.
Frank Lucas [00:55:45] Oh, God, that’s a beautiful church.
Ken Valore [00:55:48] I mean, you know, it’s a lot more ornate.
Frank Lucas [00:55:51] Yeah.
Ken Valore [00:55:51] And I’m just wondering, you know, Lithuania is a Baltic country if-
Frank Lucas [00:55:57] This is not representative. I think, in fact, in there, I was reading it. When Father Angelaitis built this church, he built it on a Greco Roman design, which. You can see the columns. You know. Why he chose that, I don’t know. I don’t know.
Ken Valore [00:56:17] I mean, it’s a lovely church. It’s just- Compared to some of them.
Frank Lucas [00:56:22] Well, and I think that’s when Father Kioskis became pastor here, I think that’s one of the reasons he brought all of that in. Spent a great deal of money to have that. And that’s how a lot. Most of it is hand-carved. And really, up until that portion of the altar was put in- Well, as you can see, it had none of the Lithuanian ethnic flavor. This church really did not have that at all. You know, even the engravings here on the podiums and on the altar. There’s another one that’s covered now, but, you know, and they’re in there. You know, this is all Lithuanian craftsmanship.
Jim Lanese [00:57:22] Are there any other parishes in the region, perhaps further east, that tend to attract the Lithuanian community?
Frank Lucas [00:57:29] Not that I know of. I mean, this is it. This is it.
Ken Valore [00:57:32] There’s not one in Akron?
Frank Lucas [00:57:37] You know, I don’t know, but I was surprised to find out when I knew I was doing that, I had to refer- And I went back into here and Father Angelaitis was brought here from a church in Akron, [crosstalk] and I want to say it was St. Anne’s in Akron, and then another Lithuanian priest was brought here from Akron from that same church. So, I mean, to my knowledge, this is it. And now that St. George is gone, this is really it. You know, and a lot of many of the other ethnic parishes are facing the same problems that we do. You know, their community is dwindling, and now with the reshuffling, they want to keep their, you know, they want to keep their identity as what the diocese terms it a personal parish. Personal parish is one of certain ethnicity. If it’s a Hungarian church, if it’s a Lithuanian church, if it’s an Italian Church. St. Mary’s here in Collinwood is a Slovenian, and they still do a Mass in Slovenian every week, every Sunday. And then your other churches are designated as territorial parishes, which are just Anglo American churches that really have no ethnicity or ethnic background to them. And many of the old ethnic parishes, of which we are one, are concerned about losing that identity, which is why we hang on.
Ken Valore [00:59:47] Okay. Jim, if you have nothing else, we’d like to thank you very much.
Frank Lucas [00:59:53] Oh, you’re very welcome.
Ken Valore [00:59:56] For your time. And like I said, you’ll get a CD of this.
Frank Lucas [01:00:00] Great.
Ken Valore [01:00:00] At some point.
Frank Lucas [01:00:01] Good.
Ken Valore [01:00:02] And it’s going to go in the archives and it’ll be on the website. And at some point there’ll be a phone app.
Jim Lanese [01:00:14] Thanks very much.
Frank Lucas [01:00:15] Thank you.
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