Abstract

Frank Fiorilli and Richard Gallitto trace the story of the Little Italy community and Holy Rosary Church. The church represents one of three major community and neighborhood institutions that shaped the community and provided the culture and community that marked the Italian neighborhood during the first three quarters of the twentieth century. Murray Hill School and the Alta House (founded by John D. Rockefeller) provided the education and social resources for immigrant workers and families. Holy Rosary parish was the center of spiritual life for the small community bounded by Case Western Reserve University and the suburban 'heights'. By the later quarter of the century, population shifts and issues with the university and with school busing programs found the community changing residents, but maintaining its cultural reputation. Holy Rosary remains vibrant and active with its past parishioners, the university, and current residents.

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Interviewee

Fiorilli, Frank (interviewee); Gallitto, Richard (interviewee)

Interviewer

Lanese, James (interviewer); Valore, Kenneth (interviewer)

Project

Sacred Landmarks

Date

7-20-2011

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

79 minutes

Transcript

James Lanese [00:00:02] All set.

Frank Fiorilli [00:00:03] Here we go.

James Lanese [00:00:03] My name is Jim Lanese, and I’m joined by Ken Valore to conduct an interview for the Center for Public History and Digital Humanities to document the history of Holy Rosary Church. The interview is being held at the rectory of Holy Rosary Church located in Little Italy, Cleveland, Ohio. Please introduce yourself and your connection with the parish and your capacity in the parish.

Frank Fiorilli [00:00:34] Well, my name’s Frank Fiorilli, and my association with Little Italy and Holy Rosary goes far as 1933. I come from a family of ten. I was born in an Italian neighborhood called Collinwood in 1925. And so my memory of my youth is very limited with regards to Collinwood other than the fact that I went to Holy Rosary Church. Pardon me, Holy Redeemer Church. And I was baptized and Holy Redeemer moved here in ’33 following the crash of 1929, which my family literally had faced the brunt of that crisis. And so my involvement with Holy Rosary probably dates back to around maybe ’35, ’36, when I was an altar boy. And since that time, Holy Rosary has been kind of a second home, meaning I spent sometimes more time here with Holy Rosary than I did in my own family.

James Lanese [00:02:03] Mr. Gallitto?

Richard Gallitto [00:02:05] My name is Richard Gallitto, and I’m a long, lifelong parishioner. I was baptized here in 1929. I don’t know why my parents waited six months before I was baptized. I was born in July of ’28. Excuse me. My grandparents were among the first founders of the parish, having lived here prior to 1890. And the church was established- Parish was established in 1892. And my dad was born on Mayfield Road here in 1893. So we go back a little bit. I haven’t had the involvement that Frank has. I’ve been on the- We live in Cleveland Heights now, not from the area, but we still are parishioners. I was the first president of the parish council program that was established after Vatican II and served in that capacity. I wrote the history of the church in 1995, I believe, somewhere around there. And then it was updated. We did an update in the last version here. My wife has been a volunteer in a rectory here for. For ten years or so after she retired from her job. So we still maintain our activities here. That’s about where I am.

Frank Fiorilli [00:03:39] Thank you.

James Lanese [00:03:39] Based on both of your experiences with the church, could you think back to those days when you were young here as an altar boy and also in your early years in the parish, the role that the parish played within the community and how the church grew during the time of, say, the ‘20s and ‘30s and so forth. And the insights you might have from life at Holy Rosary back then.

Frank Fiorilli [00:04:17] Well, I come from a family which you might say were not what you call church people, meaning that they got the Mass on Sunday, they fulfilled their obligation as a Catholic. My father was a replica of the anti-clerical population in Italy in Campo Basso region actually was called San Juan Engaldo. And I made a visit in 1975 to get a clearer picture of my father and his attitude regarding America and the Church. His love for Italy was probably, on a scale of 10, was something like 2, maybe even 1. And my visit to Italy in ’75, visiting his brother, I got a clearer picture of why he never had a love for Italy and had a frustration for the English and that consequently. But he was a very religious and pious man. Of course, that manifested itself very clearly to me during the so called high holy days of the Church. My mother was almost a daily communicant. She would come to the church quite often. But my affection for the church really grew possibly through the influence of my mother, who had a very strong devotion in the church. And somehow I had a commitment and love for our Blessed Mother. And so she was kind of the model for me as far as religious formation. Academically, it was almost on a scale of 10, would be something like 4. And that’s primarily because I went to a public school system, Murray Hill School. And I didn’t get much formation, religious formation, other than the fact that they would allow me to come and serve Mass at Holy Rosary. And often I did that sometimes out of love for the liturgy, but sometimes in my youth to get out of the classroom.

Richard Gallitto [00:06:52] Murray Hill.

Frank Fiorilli [00:06:53] Murray Hill. So I really had what you would call a very minimal religious formation until I got into John Carroll University in 1950. And during that period of time from my time at Murray Hill School, I spent almost three years in the Navy in the Second World War. And so I developed a religious formation somewhat in the Islands because I was a chaplain’s assistant. So to get away from the influence of GI living, I had the opportunity to serve Mass almost every day while I was in the service. But my religious formation really did not begin until I was received on a provisional basis at John Carroll University. I became very much involved with the Alta House after I got out of the service. And so I became much involved in the church through participation in the liturgy. I became very much involved with the Alta House because I was very much involved in what was happening in the community. And so because of my college education, I was able to become very much involved with the Alta House Board. So I became very much involved with the board going back to around almost the 50s. And so I became what I would consider to be a community leader in the church, at the Alta House and in the neighborhood. Not because I was a leader, not because I had any particular leadership skills, but I had a great passion for the neighborhood. And my major in college was history. And one of the frustrations I had as a historian was the negative image that Little Italy was living with from the time I’d been here in 33 to the present time to this present time. And so because of that, I made it a commitment and a passion and kind of a hobby to learn as much about Little Italy as I can, to learn as much as I can about University Circle and its involvement and of course, the relationship between the neighborhood and the church and how the church fit into the destiny of Little Italy. So that’s about where I’m at now.

James Lanese [00:10:03] We’re going to ask you more to elaborate on that a bit.

Richard Gallitto [00:10:07] I know in the early days, men were not particularly associated with church. It was mostly the women in various societies that they interacted with the clergy and social benefit work. But men were not particularly present.

Frank Fiorilli [00:10:28] Leadership in this neighborhood was, as far as I could see, was a low ebb. If there was any kind of leadership, I use a term that my wife shivers at, and that is any kind of leadership was connected with the ‘mob’ and whatever that means. I mean, the word mob means.

Richard Gallitto [00:10:51] Well, we all live in the shadow of that, you know, never knowing really what was going on at our age, what that involved. But it was here one shape or another. And I suppose sometimes the church ran afoul of those people, but we never knew the intricacies of those relationships.

James Lanese [00:11:14] Would you say that Holy Rosary served the majority of the immediate community population? Was it primarily Catholic.

Richard Gallitto [00:11:27] In name? Yeah, there was a small Protestant community which was a mission church, Church of the Covenant, now Euclid, St. John Beckwith, which is near the public school. The building is still there, but there’s a congregation disbanded years ago. But there was a small group of- I don’t know if they were Presbyterian, but the majority of people were Catholic. A lot of them were just personal people who were dissatisfied with some extra aspect of the personal relationships with the church or whatever, a variety of reasons, but predominantly it was a Catholic population.

Frank Fiorilli [00:12:20] I, with my background as an educator, I taught history for the seventh and eighth graders in the Catholic school system. My major in college was History. My minor was religion and sociology. And with that background, I have made an assessment of what effect Holy Rosary had on this neighborhood, the parish to me. And by the way, my involvement with the school, the Alta House and the church has caused people to push me into a position which I really didn’t relish because I’m not, I would call introvert rather than extrovert, which means that I used to shiver whenever I had to get up and speak four people. I was pushed in the task of giving tours in a neighborhood. Since ’72. Now giving these tours and my research on the history of the church, the neighborhood, University Circle, I’ve come to the conclusion that Little Italy had three major influencers or institutions that influence on the neighborhood. They were the Alta House, Murray Hill School and Holy Rosary Church. If you ask me which of those three institutions were most influential in developing a cohesiveness and a unity in Little Italy, I would have to say categorically it was Holy Rosary Church. And to clarify what I mean by that is that during giving me tours and doing my research on this community, this community was made up of People from 10 Regions of Southern Italy, the forest areas. And Italy has a history of not getting along with each other even to this day. And so for people from ten different regions being in a small area like Little Litany, it becomes quite an interesting process. Meaning that you really make it. Well, to start off with Murray Hill School would not allow you to speak Italian. So they would do as much as they can as institution to encourage people to speak English. So you never learned, at least I never learned how to speak Italian fluently, thanks to the Murray Hill School. And of course I took Italian at John Carroll. And I took it for a whole year and I just barely passed it. And the reason why I had difficulty was because the dialect was so much ingrained in me that I just couldn’t get the grammar.

Richard Gallitto [00:15:34] Well, we did have Italian for a while at Murray Hill, but it was discontinued during the war. Stupidly, they said, don’t study the enemy’s language, which we’re too now. And so I had one year of the language and that was it. Because of the war they stopped. But English was always encouraged from the church, gave English classes to the immigrants, get them workable, citizenship wise and, you know, living.  The Alta House also provided English language training to school in school, you know, at one time with a thousand students, students.

James Lanese [00:16:24] And the school went through eighth grade.

Richard Gallitto [00:16:27] I believe.

James Lanese [00:16:29] When it was open and operating by part of the Cleveland school system right what about the Alta House, sponsorship wise? I mean, is that a strictly- Was it like a Cleveland city institution?

Frank Fiorilli [00:16:46] Organization? It was- It was called a settlement house and it’s called a community center. And to my assessment it was both. It was a settlement house because it helped to deal with the early settlers that arrived in Cleveland. And Little Italy, his parents and grandparents got here a lot earlier than my family did. And in fact they were here before some of the research I’ve done on little but the- See, where was I, that Alta House?

Richard Gallitto [00:17:32] It was actually founded by John Rockefeller.

Frank Fiorilli [00:17:34] Rockefeller, right. And so it really was a settlement house because really it was a home away from home. I mean some of these houses didn’t even have bathrooms. They had outhouses primarily.

Richard Gallitto [00:17:50] He did that to give bath facilities and daycare.

Frank Fiorilli [00:17:53] And so there were a lot of people.

Richard Gallitto [00:17:55] People in Forest Hills and would ride down Mayfield Hill and see all little Italians and all the immigrants. So he became friends with Mr. Carabelli was a businessman and a stonemason. They together, you know, became friends. And he Rockefeller endowed the center, named it after his daughter Alta Rockefeller premise. And he did it to help the people here. But providing baths and daycares, daycare. Then he built that the settlement house which was burned down in the ‘70s, I guess ’80.

Frank Fiorilli [00:18:39] 1980.

Richard Gallitto [00:18:40] ’80. And the library which copied it with a gymnasium and a pool. So we had nice facilities here from his largesse. And he funded it for a while until they stopped giving money from their oil company. And then it became part of the United Way funding. And that has since dwindled. Now it’s mostly a little help to senior citizens programs mainly now since there are not many children left in this area. But it was in its day, it was. Everybody went to Alta House.

Frank Fiorilli [00:19:31] It really was a center that was desperately needed in the area. It served every need that the immigrants had. A place to entertain relatives and friends, celebrate festivals or special occasions. A place for a person to take a shower at least once a week. A camp to go to.

Richard Gallitto [00:19:53] Oh yes, they had a camp.

Frank Fiorilli [00:19:55] It developed skills, different kind of crafts. And it was the place where these so called 10 people from different regions could come together as a family and enjoy their company or camaraderie. This Carabelli he’s talking about, it was kind of George Washington of the neighborhood.

Richard Gallitto [00:20:20] He was one of the founders of the church.

Frank Fiorilli [00:20:23] And what makes him so unique is that one, he was not a southern Italian, he was from Rome. So he was somewhat a skilled artisan, an aristocrat of some sort. But when he came here, he became a very astute politician. So much so that he became very close friends of. Of the Rockefeller’s. He was a man who was able to influence the politicians during this period of time where there was a lot of anti-Catholicism to make, of course, anti-Catholics and anti Italians to make Columbus Day a legal holiday. He was a state representative and he was one of the guys which was influential in getting Catholics to support the building of this church, even though he was not Catholic. So he was an amazing person. But I guess he was influential in bringing skilled artisans into the area. Because again, we got to remember during the Depression, the lowest scale of work was given to the Italians. The hardest jobs available was given to the Italians. Among all the immigrants in this area, as well as. One interesting thing about this neighborhood is that it had two names. It was either called the Hill. And what you normally do with a hill is you dump the refuge, right? And so as the Cleveland Arch was being built, all that digging, the dirt was dumped over the hill. So consequently, behind the elder house, we had a beautiful hill. I can remember as a youth, there were all those trees there. So we used to use that hill to slide in wintertime. But it was also called Mayfield and Murray Hill. So for a long time it was called Mayfield and Murray Hill because of the two major roads, Murray Hill and Mayfield Road. But the reason I mention that is because Cleveland Heights never claimed this area. East Cleveland would never claim this area. And the city Cleveland never claimed this area until 1910. So to me, as a historian, why? I mean, were they a non entity? And after I made a number of trips to Italy, to the region, and my years, and seeing the transition, the changes in the area, I really felt as though when we speak of a ghetto, this was what you would call a ghetto. Because the Italians were here for a number of reasons. One was for acceptability, respectability, and a right to live as a human person. And this place, this little place here, provided that. And when I speak of the mob, I speak of it with some kind of affection. Because the survival was not dependent upon. Of course, Italians were very reluctant to accept charity. I know my family, when I said I moved from Collinwood to here, I moved out of Collinwood because my family was kicked out of the house for a whole month out in the street because we couldn’t afford the rent. And so we were out in the street for a month until we finally came to Little Italy. So I have a very bitter feeling about how we were accepted as immigrants into this United States. Well, I got that chip off my shoulder.

Richard Gallitto [00:24:20] It may have been a ghetto, but it had a lot of amenities that other areas never had. We had a pool in Murray Hill. We had a pool at Alta House, a full gymnasium there, a summer camp and all the activities we wanted at although House. So we were well taken care of in many ways. It was not an unpleasant life. I wouldn’t change it for anything. We had such a good time here.

Frank Fiorilli [00:24:48] But that was true. But I agree with you. All that was being done in Little Italy was kind of unique. Like Murray Hill School was considered one of the best in the whole system. It really was. Of course, the reason why it was one of the best built is because we had many problems. We had, I think the second, the last. There’s four floors in the building, and I think the third and fourth floors were students who had some kind of respiratory problems. So TB and respiratory problems was very common in the area. And so we had a dispensary which was not heard of in many of the public schools. We had a good swimming pool because we needed that kind of exercise. And so we had facilities there which were not seen. In fact, I have a condominium up there. And I keep telling the people it’s probably the most solid building in this whole neighborhood. And so it’s a building which was well built, well built. But that period of time, it was very fashionable for people of means, financial means, to develop community centers. And you can find a lot of that among the Protestant denominations. So Alta House coming into being might have been one of the first settlement houses. But it was not far from being what you would call a class one, because a very prominent one was being built on the west side was the Alta House.

James Lanese [00:26:35] What year was that founded, do you know?

Frank Fiorilli [00:26:37] It’s 1900, about 1905. 19-

James Lanese [00:26:42] Now, as that relates to Holy Rosary.

Frank Fiorilli [00:26:44] Yeah, actually all three. The school, Holy Rosary, they were built within the early 1900s. Okay.

James Lanese [00:26:53] And that’s the current Holy Rosary. But I think in your history going back to the founding of the parish, there was a church that preceded where.

Richard Gallitto [00:27:04] The school building is, where the school is. It was a wooden structure. Was the original church temporary until they built.

Frank Fiorilli [00:27:16] One of the interesting. Talking about religiously acceptability or for the Italians, in the early 1900s, if they wanted to go to a church, the church they had to go to was the church which was located near Jacob’s Field. So you had to travel that distance. And the reason why they had a travel, even though they had built a church on East Cleveland called St. Philomena’s and I think they also had one which they were building. They had built somewhere around near Wade park, around St. Clair or Superior. But the reason why Catholics didn’t go there is because Catholics were doing the same thing that non-Catholics were doing. I mean, they would not let the immigrants participate in their liturgy. So what they did is they built them a church. So for instance, the Church of the Covenant, the big beautiful church there. Well, they did not want the immigrants to fraternize with them. So what they did is they built them a church on Murray Hill.

Richard Gallitto [00:28:24] St. John Beckwith.

Frank Fiorilli [00:28:25] St. John Beckwith. And of course, in those days we had what they call breadbasket Catholics, which means that you go to that church that had. Provides you with the means for survival, food. And so there were a number of people who in this neighborhood became non-Catholics because that denomination would provide them with the means, food to survive. Holy Rosary, I think didn’t have that luxury. But anyways, what happened was that there was discrimination in the different denominations Catholics. And so Holy Rosary was served for a period of time by a mission congregation called the Scalabrini Fathers. And the Scalabrini Fathers used to come from Italy to give missions at that affluent Catholic church called St. Philomena. Remember East Cleveland? East Cleveland was the first suburb, first suburb built. And of course in that suburb we have John D. Rockefeller, Forest Hills. But that was the religious connection. And Holy Rosary Church came into being again, as I said. But the person like Caraelli who came on the scene.

Richard Gallitto [00:29:54] Well, the population kept increasing.

Frank Fiorilli [00:29:56] Oh, yeah.

Richard Gallitto [00:29:57] It was not feasible for all these people to try to. St. Anthony.

Frank Fiorilli [00:30:04] Yeah, we had a wooden structure here.

Richard Gallitto [00:30:06] What 18th and 19th in prospect. St. Anthony. It’s a men- The Maronite. Yeah, by church.

James Lanese [00:30:19] So the first structure served for 10, 15 years while.

Richard Gallitto [00:30:25] While they built it. Yeah, because the parish had established in 1892. And then shortly after that they put up this wooden structure which is the site of the present Montessori School, adjacent to the church. And that after they built this church, they still kept that wooden building because we used to have meetings.

Frank Fiorilli [00:30:45] Yeah, we used to have meetings there. We would have catechism there. Catechism.

Richard Gallitto [00:30:50] And I don’t know. Then that was demolished when they went to school in the 50s.

Frank Fiorilli [00:30:55] Yeah, I can remember taking catechism in that building.

James Lanese [00:31:00] Comment on the architecture of the church. How would what you know, as far as how it was originally designed, if it was influenced by any particular.

Richard Gallitto [00:31:15] It’s Roman, kind of looks like the one in Ripa.

Frank Fiorilli [00:31:18] It’s Roman. Roman. But it also has some kind of baroque. By baroque, that means that scene is very ornate. A lot of. And also had lights. If you look at the church, you have those little beams. And where those beams are, there used to be lights. In fact, Holy Rosary Church was the first church in Cleveland that had a gas light, which means that it was unique. One of the few churches that had religious services at night because they had gas lights. But we’ve had at least four major changes.

Richard Gallitto [00:32:02] The church is basically very simple. Have you been in?

James Lanese [00:32:07] Oh, yes.

Richard Gallitto [00:32:09] It’s simple and it’s kind of like the church in Rippo. The church there. I remember we visited the area where my wife and my family came from in Campo Basso. And this church kind of looks like the church there.

Frank Fiorilli [00:32:29] I think the immigrants. Of the 10 immigrants, I think the largest number came from his parent’s region. And I happened to visit that church and one of the interesting things I found in that church was a copy, I should say a copy. The original statue of Our Lady of the Assumption. That church has the original. Okay. It’s about maybe a third of the size of the one we have here, but it’s marble or stone of some sort. But I was really amazed when I went into that church and I said, Holy mackeral, would that church look just like Holy Rosaries? But the people- And of course, the village he comes from is an amazing village. I mean, they had- They had a high school there. They had- I don’t know if they had a college. They had a college on that campus. It was a beautiful place.

Richard Gallitto [00:33:25] They were there a long time ago. But the church is very. It doesn’t have all the artistic work that the. Like the German churches.

Frank Fiorilli [00:33:35] Oh, yeah.

Richard Gallitto [00:33:36] Woodwork and carvings for all the artisans we had here. It’s very, very simple. And the altar is not marble.

Frank Fiorilli [00:33:46] No, no, it’s wood.

Richard Gallitto [00:33:47] It’s all wood.

Frank Fiorilli [00:33:48] Yeah, yeah. Everything was wood.

Richard Gallitto [00:33:50] They had much money in those days.

Frank Fiorilli [00:33:52] Oh, no.

Richard Gallitto [00:33:52] Whatever they had went a long way in what they got.

Frank Fiorilli [00:33:57] They believed that they’re saints. They had statues. We had. I think we owed out. I was going to say we have almost as many statues as they had in Rome, but we had statues all over the place. But that’s because each of these 10 regions had their own particular patron saint.

Richard Gallitto [00:34:16] Well, yeah, there were a lot of different societies that honored different saints, but they were benevolent groups that did a lot of good.

Frank Fiorilli [00:34:25] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They supported each other. I mean, people from the different regions.

Richard Gallitto [00:34:29] Supported each other who didn’t have jobs and needed food. So very few people here were actually on Public welfare. It was mostly. Oh yeah, sustained by the church, other groups, all to us.

James Lanese [00:34:43] So the community spirit did build, despite.

Frank Fiorilli [00:34:46] Yeah, well, no, that was a. That was a strong. No, that was a strong community spirit.

Richard Gallitto [00:34:51] Jokes about different people. I don’t think there was any animosity. Well, I don’t know. But the other people, people, you know, animosity. Just jokes about how different regions reacted of different things. The customs of a lot of different, you know, the foods are different and customs varied. But on the whole it was, you know, pretty homogeneous.

Frank Fiorilli [00:35:14] You know, give us some idea of the. We didn’t have gangs here. We had just clubs.

Richard Gallitto [00:35:21] Clubs.

Frank Fiorilli [00:35:22] If you had a particular skill, baseball, basketball, golf, you’d form a club. And so even to this day, these people, these different clubs get together long lasting. At one time Alta House had as many as 50 clubs, not 50 clubs. That means there must be a club, at least 10 clubs in each street.

Richard Gallitto [00:35:47] They were all constructive, not gangs.

Frank Fiorilli [00:35:50] But they got along.

Richard Gallitto [00:35:51] They all did things. Value, not flash mobs. But that was the focus of the settlement movement too. One of the focuses was on group work with providing kids with constructive things to do instead of famously roaming around destroying property. But it was an area where everybody knew everybody and you didn’t go out astray too much because you get reported by something else. And it was a self monitoring community and everybody respected a property. You know, you would never think of taking anybody’s property on people’s lawns.

Frank Fiorilli [00:36:33] The answers would be on the lap.

Richard Gallitto [00:36:35] We didn’t do that. You disrespected everybody’s rights.

Frank Fiorilli [00:36:39] I think we have what we had about 26. We had at least 26 mom and pop grocery stores in the neighborhood.

Richard Gallitto [00:36:47] It was really self contained.

Frank Fiorilli [00:36:48] At least three banks, we had three theaters. And some of the theaters, the entertainers would come from Italy and entertain. So it was kind of a self contained community.

Richard Gallitto [00:37:01] We had three Jewish merchants who lived there peacefully for many years and Gertrude Pilecki at the hardware store next to us. And they lived there. The Shores ran the dry goods store and Rich had the furniture store.

Frank Fiorilli [00:37:17] Yeah, yeah, was there in the 30s. There was no need to remember. There was no need for you to go downtown. Because if you wanted all the pizzazz and all the entertainment of downtown Cleveland, all you had to go to was 105th and Euclid.

Richard Gallitto [00:37:32] And then there was a criticism that we were too insular, too isolated from everybody. We didn’t have the experience of the larger community. But we’re able to do that too. Within the self-contained area that we knew and like, when I was a little kid, I thought everybody was Italian Catholic. There was nobody else. But then you learn. And this provided a lot of security and safety for us. And we would venture out when we were like 10 years old and take the streetcar, go downtown by ourselves and, you know, feel safe and come back here and feel safer. So good place to live.

James Lanese [00:38:18] How was the relationship between the community here and the university community?

Richard Gallitto [00:38:26] Craig can speak to that because.

James Lanese [00:38:27] And did Holy Rosary play any role, official role with that?

Richard Gallitto [00:38:32] I think Frank was a Newman.

Frank Fiorilli [00:38:35] Well, you know what? Prior to the Newman, one of the most prominent. I wouldn’t say inferential, but the most prominent family that lived in this neighborhood was the Barricelli’s. Now, the Barricelli’s used to live in what looks like a mansion, Murray Hill. And so there were some very renowned lawyers and doctors who graduated from Case Western Reserve. At that time, it was just Case or Reserve. But education was not. Was not a priority in this area. Really. Education was not a priority. It was there until after the Second World War. War, in my assessment. And what made education a reality or necessity was two. One was the fact that after the Second World War, you had to have some kind of high school graduation certificate. And so you really have. So the job market became very competitive. And secondly, Uncle Sam had that his hands out there to make school available to you. So my family, I was the only one who was able to graduate from college. And that’s because the GI Bill paid for it. Otherwise I could never have made it financially. So. But it never became a priority. And part of. Part of the reason was because in the old country, the children were needed more on the farm than they were in a classroom. But secondly, in my family situation, my family could only survive if all my brothers were out making some money, either shining shoes, selling newspapers, working at the golf course, or doing. My one brother worked for, I think wpa, doing some forestry work. So my brothers and I, we had whatever little money we made help us pay the rent and buy the food, because my father just couldn’t make. He just couldn’t get a job. And the only way he was able to get a job was through the influence of Sonny de Morbius, who was head of the Republican Party in Cleveland. And so he got my father a job making ice. Now, when I say making ice, my father had all kinds of talent, because in Italy, he was kind of- They called him the Woodsman, which means that he can do anything with anything that was hard. Plumbing, woodwork, plastering. But when he came into this country, Here it was very difficult for him to find a job.  And so it was a sort of frustration for him as well as for the family.

Richard Gallitto [00:41:44] I think the relations with the university became strained in the late ‘50s, sort of when they purchased what would be the better homes on Murray Hill for their dorms at fraternity houses. And there was a great deal of resistance, first from people not to sell. And then when they saw what they were offered, somebody started selling. And then the next thing, the next one sold. And so there was a lot of animosity in that since they took the better homes and put up the fraternity homes and dorms on upper Murray Hill. And then things became even more strained with incidents with students. Frank was involved in a lot of negotiations.

Frank Fiorilli [00:42:36] Yeah, I was. I was a representative on the University Circle board. This guy just- Bernie got out of factor. My education is a miracle, but that would take a whole series. But anyways, I was pushed in as a representative of Little Italy along with the pastor. And I think there might have been another person. It might have been Johnny Pekka, Father Gasparri. Well, the pastor was always an automatic member of the board. And then I think they had two other of us. So I was on the board. My membership on the board, University Circle, goes as far back as the late ‘50s or maybe early 60s. And being on a member of that board, I was able to see just what the board was planning on doing for the future. And of course, I. And I remember I told you I did a lot of research on the neighborhood in Little Italy and University Circle and its involvement. And in the late- I think in the late ‘50s or early ‘60s, either the Mather family or one of the- I think it was the Mather family gave them a huge grant, which was in the millions of dollars, and that was to develop a plan for University Circle. They had a vision that this area, from the clinic all the way down Lakeview Cemetery, even as far as Bratenahl, has a potential of beginning a unique area of culture, education, medicine and all that. So they had a vision that this can be done. And so what they did is they kept making five and ten year plans. And so while I was on this board, I was listening to all these plans that they were talking about. Of course, as a member, community member on the board, we never had much to say at those board meetings. All we did is sit down and listen to the executive board give a report on what their plans were, how they were doing on the plans. And I come back a little, literally to the Alta House and to the church and say, now this is what these guys are talking about doing. And of course, it would just go over their head. They said, well, they can go ahead and do it, but it’s not going to affect us because we’re so close knit, they’re not going to bother us at all. Well, of course, I didn’t make much headway in my sounding the alarm until we start getting into the bus issue. Once we started getting into the bus issue, then it became a problem because then the University Circle had already bought some of the properties on Murray Hill. School dormitories were there. And once they built those dormitories, the furniture and the houses, then the people started getting upset with two elements. One was the noise that students vary. And the other was the fact that there were people moving into the neighborhood which they were not accustomed to seeing. And people coming into the neighborhood were Asians, Afro-Americans and Indians. Of course, they tolerated it as long as they stayed in that area of the dormitories and the fraternity houses. But I think once we got into this whole issue of busing, which is interesting because we started busing people in Murray hill school before they came up with that issue. And the reason why we bused them into Murray hill School, not because we wanted a deal. We were sympathetic for the afro population, but we welcomed them in Mary hill school because that was the only way we could keep the school open, open. So we had to keep the population up. And so we got the population by busing some students in there. Plus they had a program there for disadvantaged children, children with disabilities. So they had a school for kids with disabilities. So they were able to keep that school open for at least almost 10 years more than they would have otherwise have closed it. So I think the. So they were looking for a scapegoat for all these changes taking place. And then this whole issue of race came into the 60s. And so we had problems for almost 15 years. We had problems with the students. But what we did is we formed what they call a communications committee.  And this communications committee was made up of people from the city hall’s community relations board member, Holy rosary church pastor was represented. The director of the Alta House was represented. The principal of the Murray school was represented. We had what they call the little Mayfield Murray hill district council. And so we have people there. So they had. We had at least 12 people represented. So whenever an incident arises, whether it be with a student or with an Afro-American person or person just walking through the neighborhood, as soon as we heard of that incident, this group would get together and we would try to sort out the particular particulars of the event and trying to squash the thing. Well, it worked pretty well, really did, to the point that we haven’t met for at least the last 20 years.

Richard Gallitto [00:48:36] Well, the problem has gone away more or less because of the population change. They’re not the families that live there that were disturbed by all this fractured. It’s more of a transient area now, graduate students and other students, young professionals living there. So that’s not the animosity that would exist between a regular residential community, family based area. It’s transient and they kind of go along with the lifestyle of the noise and whatever happens up in the fraternities, the quad up there for graduate students. I guess you don’t have that conflict of different populations kind of blend in now. So the problem’s not like it was.

James Lanese [00:49:29] That’s comparing the current population of the community.

Richard Gallitto [00:49:33] Yeah. Because when they started buying a property and they were having these parties and late night music blasting, there were families on Murray Hill who still remained there with children. And it was a normal community, residential. But since then that has totally changed. Very few people who lived there originally are there, they’re not there. The places are a lot of absentee landlords who rent it off to students. And so the lifestyle is the same as what’s going on there. There’s no conflict there as it was before. So the problem kind of went away that.

Frank Fiorilli [00:50:13] Well. Yeah, you know, I, I think not.

Richard Gallitto [00:50:15] Too many people left on- There are very few original people left here, Frank. I can count them in church. I can count like eight or nine people that I remember living here because it’s mostly restaurants, studios, galleries and residential places for students, young, young people working in the University Circle area.

James Lanese [00:50:42] Does the church continue to attract a lot of the original families, to your-

Richard Gallitto [00:50:48] Knowledge, to mass who are left come back, would you say, Frank?

Frank Fiorilli [00:50:54] Well, I think, I think the last figures I heard was that we have, we had somewhere in the neighborhood six to 700 families. Of the six or 700 families, which you might call stable families living in the area for a period of time, number would be somewhere close to three to 400, if that much. So the population now when we say 3 to 400, we’re not talking about Italians right now, the population, just looking at the people walking in and out through the neighborhood, I get the feeling that there’s more. I get the feeling there’s more Asians here than there are Italians. All right. And so. And of course of the Italians that are here, they’re  they’re probably that probably second or third generation Italians but I think even that figure might be generous. So there’s quite a mixture. I think what makes this neighborhood kind of strange and interesting and challenging is that it’s been said that the houses in this neighborhood non owner occupied property in this neighborhood is better than 82%. Now when you get and when you get 82%, which of course is higher than the city of Cleveland, okay Now when you have 82% of the people who are non owner occupied facilities and they’re all a good percentage of them are substandard housing neglected. Now you have substandard housing for two reasons. One is that the house they had only one housing inspector in this neighborhood. And when the city’s workload for housing inspection is overwhelming, this area here is at low on the priority list. And of course the politicians have come here at community meetings and they have very frankly told us we are low in the priorities. So don’t expect us to be around when you call. Secondly, the houses because they are owned by relatives of people who have moved out into the suburbs of. I’m only content with getting rental and rental in this area when I say rental anywhere from $300 to $800, they’re content with getting 300, 400, $500 a month. They don’t have to do anything with the property and they lead to multiple rent and they don’t do it. People pulling together and they know they don’t overpopulate. They can do it for two reasons. One is because the person who complaining is a relative who sits next door or lives next door to dilapidated house. So if they’re related, they’re not going to make a fuss about and secondly they won’t make a fuss about it because if they make a fuss to city hall about it, they’ll come up and inspect your house as well. And secondly is that you especially now of course right now it’s changed a little bit because University Circle, that is the colleges have built dormitories before they start building these dormitories. You didn’t have to put a sign out in the window saying for rent.

Richard Gallitto [00:54:42] The north campus has taken a lot away.

Frank Fiorilli [00:54:44] So they’ve taken a lot of that so called modern and so that. But I think our biggest problem is the fact that there’s not been any effort done on the part of the neighborhood as well as City Hall to do anything to get us to get these properties up the coast.

Richard Gallitto [00:55:05] It’s the absentee landlord.

Frank Fiorilli [00:55:07] But you see I’m not getting around that. But there’s a charm, there’s an attraction here, and there’s a potential in this neighborhood. And the reason why I can say that with great force is that if it wasn’t so all the condominium was, never would have existed. And when I say condominiums, I’m not talking something for three or $400,000. I’m talking about something that goes high as $700,000. See? So there’s a draw. And of course, I find that encouraging. One, because the people who buy those condos are people who live in them and they’re going to take care of them. Secondly, there are people who come here with some kind of talent, either leadership, talent or creativity, which is very lacking in the neighborhood.

Richard Gallitto [00:56:00] There were three major developments. One is the Alta House condominiums. And then there’s the Coltman Road, 27 units and Edge Hill, say about eight or nine of those high rises up there. But they’re all on the high end.

James Lanese [00:56:20] Getting back to Holy Rosary, what year was the school established and how long did it go?

Frank Fiorilli [00:56:26] Holy Rosary School? Yes.

Richard Gallitto [00:56:29] In the ‘50s.

Frank Fiorilli [00:56:30] 50S. I think in the 50s. It closed. It closed somewhere just before Father Rocco.

Richard Gallitto [00:56:37] Well, closed just with-

Frank Fiorilli [00:56:40] Father Rocco didn’t.

Richard Gallitto [00:56:41] About 10 years ago.

Frank Fiorilli [00:56:42] Oh, no, longer than that.

Richard Gallitto [00:56:44] You think so?

Frank Fiorilli [00:56:45] Yeah, yeah, it closed around the time Father Rocco came because nobody. Nobody else had. The other fish didn’t have the courage to do it.

Richard Gallitto [00:56:55] Yeah, well, they didn’t want to. We had an Italian order and they. They just couldn’t close the school. School. They didn’t want to.

Frank Fiorilli [00:57:03] Oh, they didn’t want to close the school.

Richard Gallitto [00:57:04] Actually, they were not parish management. They were youth oriented. They had a retreat house in Avon. So they were more working with youth, not. Not a parish setting. And I don’t think they had the heart to close the school.

Frank Fiorilli [00:57:20] Well, they didn’t want to. They didn’t want to close the school, of course. See that?

Richard Gallitto [00:57:23] But you had to because there was nobody. It’s like the churches that were closed now. There’s nobody supporting them. And it was a very strong.

Frank Fiorilli [00:57:30] They were a congregation, they were a religious congregation, which means that their bylaws says that they had to have a community of at least five or six priests. Five or six priests in this parish was a luxury. And of course, it worked out just fine with the Italians because everybody had their own particular priest and said to somebody, why you wanted a program for children, for youth? Well, of course, you had at least a couple priests or brothers.

Richard Gallitto [00:57:58] It was shortly after 5 so we were spoiled. When you were here, we had the honor of closing it. So he was here 22 years. Maybe it was like five years that he was here. Father Rocco by the time he closed the school anywhere, like five years.

Frank Fiorilli [00:58:14] I don’t know. I thought he closed it before that.

Richard Gallitto [00:58:16] No, I mean, he had only been here a few years. Years, but he was up until December. He was there for 22 years. So maybe it was like 15 years ago.

James Lanese [00:58:26] But the need to close was most likely due to population changing, as you just described.

Frank Fiorilli [00:58:33] Well, it was a combination of things. One is because people won’t admit it, but the busing situation really put the spike in the coffin, people moved away. Because, remember before busing became a big issue, when people graduated from Murray Hill School in the eighth grade, they had an option to go to at least five or six public schools in the system. Shortly after, just before the busing became an issue, they changed that to be, if you graduated from Murray Hill School, there was only two middle schools you can go to, and the two middle schools you were going to were schools that had population of at least 90% Afro-Americans. Now, we said, well, what’s so wrong with that? Well, what was wrong with that was that Little Italy at that time was being labeled as a racist neighborhood. And so if you had your kid- And I can remember I took a walk with the pastor and the bishop, the three of us took a walk from here to 105th Street, in which there was- The school was called Mary Bethune School, Middle School. We walked there during- And we walked there to let the bishop know how hazardous it was for these kids to walk up there because you couldn’t take public transportation. It was not far enough to get public transportation. You had to walk it. And so you had to walk from here to Wade park and from Wade Park to 105th Street and then down to the school. And it rained. It rained that day. And so we’re walking down, and lo and behold, we’re walking down 105th Street and there’s a panhandler out there asking the bishop for some money. And so we told the bishop, you have to allow the Murray Hill School children to transfer to Holy Rosary because they were closing Murray Hill School so that the parents wanted to transfer their kids to Holy Rosary. And the bishop said, well, you can’t do that, because what you’re doing is you’re circumventing or you’re avoiding the law to integrate the schools. And so even though we show him how hazardous it was. He would not allow the children from Murray Hill School to transfer to Holy Rosary. And so what happens, you had this problem that the only two places you can have your children go from Murray Hill School after graduation or even from Holy Rosary after the eighth grade was those two schools. And so before the children can reach that age, which means when the children got to the fifth or sixth grade, the parents already made plans to get their kids into the suburbs, which means that they’re even going to ship them out to their grandparents. And so consequently, because they couldn’t get into Holy Rosary School, the Holy Rosary population started dwindling down.

Richard Gallitto [01:01:54] Ironically, when we graduated Murray Hill in the eighth grade in the ‘40s, the only school we could go to was Fairmont, which was 80% Black, no problem at all. And we walked there.

Frank Fiorilli [01:02:07] Yeah, right.

Richard Gallitto [01:02:08] So here you have, a few years later becomes a tremendous problem.

Frank Fiorilli [01:02:12] Yeah, because I went to Fairmont, I went to Fairmont for one year, but then I went to East High.

Richard Gallitto [01:02:18] Follow the same path.

Frank Fiorilli [01:02:20] So the schooling situation really was a major- My feeling was a major element in the whole change.

Richard Gallitto [01:02:31] Well, Montessori was set up so that it would be a better, larger attraction for students from a non residential area, for people in the university area to bring their kids during the day and pick them up on the way home.

Frank Fiorilli [01:02:46] That was one reason. Another reason, I think they chose the Montessori school because I was on that committee with Mr. Cerroti, who was the architect. And the reason why we chose a Montessori school, because that building was built for a school you could not put. They didn’t want any more galleries in a school place. So. And secondly, you couldn’t have a gallery there because you had to use the parking lot. And you couldn’t use the parking lot because the parking lot was needed for funerals and for Masses. And so there was no way you can do anything with that building other than leaving it vacant. And they were afraid that it was going to be vandalized. And so we worked on this Montessori and Father and of course before the Montessori school came in, we already had a program which was called the Good shepherd program. And the Good shepherd program is kind of. It’s part of the Montessori process. But the Good shepherd program deals with children at the age of three. And so we had the Good shepherd program here for almost 10 years before the Montessori School came in. So we really- Father. Already knew how the Montessori School would be working and it would appeal to.

Richard Gallitto [01:04:04] People that were in the area. Who would be familiar with that kind of learning process and would have more appeal than a regular parochial school and the clientele that was available. And it’s worked out they started with 10 kids. Now how many are there?

Frank Fiorilli [01:04:24] For who? Them?

Richard Gallitto [01:04:25] The Montessori.

Frank Fiorilli [01:04:26] Oh, yeah. It started with a very small number. Now they have waiting lists. And a Good shepherd program, by the way, is so popular. It’s so popular that we have a training session every summer. It’s a week session and we get people as far as Alaska. In fact, this past I was talking to the class that went through last week and one of the ladies, there was a lady from Alaska. So they come from all parts of the United States to this program. Which means, in fact, one of the priests there was a Byzantine pastor. He was taking the course because he wanted to start. And so this girl Laurel, she’d been doing it for quite some time, so. And they occupied the whole top floor of the building, so they rent that part for the Good shepherd program. And the other two floors is for the Montessori school.

Richard Gallitto [01:05:29] So it’s thriving.

James Lanese [01:05:33] Getting back to the church, I think you had mentioned it’s been remodeled two or three times since it was originally built.

Richard Gallitto [01:05:40] Fire.

Frank Fiorilli [01:05:40] Well, we’ve had two fires. How has it changed? You really want to know? Well, it was beneficial to me because I’m a collector. I’m a collector. So anything they’ve tossed out of the church, I made sure I got a hold of it. So it’s in my backyard. Including 100-year-old baptismal fountain which Bishop Pilla was baptized in.

Richard Gallitto [01:06:12] Me too. Back of the church originally. That’s where the cry room is now.

Frank Fiorilli [01:06:19] Yeah, it’s a cry- So. No, no, it’s- Every pastor who’s come here has had his own idea how the church should look.

Richard Gallitto [01:06:30] You know, it hasn’t really changed that much except with the Vatican II. With taking the communion rail away. Yeah, all that and the altar facing another altar facing people.

Frank Fiorilli [01:06:45] But I think the big draw of Holy Rosary has been primarily the way we celebrate our liturgy.

Richard Gallitto [01:06:51] Yeah.

Frank Fiorilli [01:06:54] We’Ve had some very good pastors. The last two or three of them.

Richard Gallitto [01:06:57] You know, the steps used to be front facing. There were not the separate side entrance. It was just all the way down a lot of steps. And where the two exits are or where the confessional.

Frank Fiorilli [01:07:11] There are two exits and even the side entrances. The fire marshal forced us to do that because there was no exits from the side. The only way you could exit out of the church was to the front.

Richard Gallitto [01:07:26] One of the major changes is the Elevator for handicapping people.

Frank Fiorilli [01:07:29] Well, the elevator came into being because we have become. We’re co-sponsors of Abington Arms. So that facility there, the pastor has always been the president of that board and I’m on that board and I can tell you that it’s probably one of the best in the state of Ohio.

Richard Gallitto [01:07:53] What’s that?

Frank Fiorilli [01:07:54] Abington Arms, a Section 8 facility, is probably one of the best in the state.

Richard Gallitto [01:08:00] We got a lot of people there.

Frank Fiorilli [01:08:01] Use an elevator too. And so the members of the board from Holy Rosary have made sure that everything that was done in that building was done right. And fortunately we had one of the guys from the parish who was involved in. What’s that hospital on the west side, the big one? County Metro Metro. He’s on the board at Metro General. On the board of Metro General Hospital. So when they built this facility, the University Circle engineers. I don’t know whether I was trying to pull wool over our eyes, but they were trying to make it. I personally think they were trying to make it to look like a building you can change into a hotel once they take over. You mean Abington, Abington Arms. So. Because the arrangement we made with that was that Holy Rosary would be a co sponsor which was necessary for government funding with the understanding that after 25 years. I think 25 years. Well, maybe longer, maybe 40. I think it’s 40 years. After 40 years, it becomes at least become property of University Circle or, you know, University Circle. Holy Rosary does not have any claim on it, which means that they could easily, after 40 years, take the people out and make a hotel out of it. Well, anyways, our idea was that they were trying to make the place look like a. A hotel or an apartment. And so they were doing things which were not proper for people with disabilities. And so this guy got them to redesign the whole thing to make it handicap accessibility. So it’s a beautiful facility. In fact, just past year they got well over a million dollars to renovate the whole, all the units. And some guys already offered to buy the place. They wouldn’t hear it.

Richard Gallitto [01:10:09] We had a lot of people that come from there.

Frank Fiorilli [01:10:11] No, it’s a beautiful facility and it’s really- Well, you know, they have a racial quota, right? And we far exceed the racial quota. We had hoped to get a lot of Italians there. You can’t get the Italians to move out of these dwellings in their neighborhood. So his wife, by the way, is- We were talking about the Alta House. His wife was one of the pillars of Alta House. Not only the Alta House, but also here. So his wife has really been very much involved with-

Richard Gallitto [01:10:58] Well, she came from a clerk that was involved with the church. Her father was a councilman, and so.

Frank Fiorilli [01:11:04] She was secretary here for a long time, wasn’t she?

Richard Gallitto [01:11:06] No, no, she volunteers. Volunteered after she retired from Alta. A couple days a week. She just volunteers there to help out with the. Oh, the Newman affiliation is relatively new because there aren’t enough religious to serve on campus. We used to have a resident Newman facility with the priest assigned there.

Frank Fiorilli [01:11:35] That they did.

Richard Gallitto [01:11:35] That’s a luxury today. So they have a lay person, several lay people that coordinate the program, and we serve as the religious headquarters for the-

Frank Fiorilli [01:11:47] Of course, they’re a great asset. I mean, we really see what effect they have on a parish when school is out or for the summer, because a third of the population goes down about.

Richard Gallitto [01:12:04] You can tell them, summer that’s empty. But they’re very faithful. We have a faithful student body. They’re very. They’re active here and they participate as lectors and eucharistic ministers. And my wife and I are on the RCIA team here, which is for adult Catholic education. And we have a lot of people who are just non-Catholics to- From the university wanting to join the church. We’ve met a lot of nice people through that program.

Frank Fiorilli [01:12:42] That RCIA process we have here has done wonders in that it’s really showed Catholics, born Catholics, how unique and how privileged we are as Christians to be Roman Catholics. Because these people who come in, who come from other religious traditions come in and they. In the short time. And this program is what, nine months?

Richard Gallitto [01:13:15] It’s like a school year. Yeah. Beginning first of September through Pentecost.

Frank Fiorilli [01:13:20] So their example.

Richard Gallitto [01:13:22] We’re off a few weeks.

Frank Fiorilli [01:13:24] Their example is quite uplifting because it really shows the born Catholics what their faith is all about and how they should respect it. And when we talk about a holy place, these people show you. They give you by their body language or by their commitment.

Richard Gallitto [01:13:50] They carry them as kids to be baptized. The adults who consciously make a decision to do that. It’s inspiring to us.

Frank Fiorilli [01:14:00] Yeah, it’s inspiring because we take everything.

Richard Gallitto [01:14:02] For granted, more or less. Or we have. And you see different people really blossom. We’ve had Muslims.

Frank Fiorilli [01:14:11] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s unique because you have people, they’re.

Richard Gallitto [01:14:14] In fear of their life.

Frank Fiorilli [01:14:16] Eastern, from the Eastern tradition. Whereas you get places out in the suburbs, you don’t have that diversity, but we get that diversity, which is interesting.

Richard Gallitto [01:14:27] Very diverse. We had Amish boy come. It was funny to Hear the name Yoder being baptized. We’ve had a lot of interesting people.

Frank Fiorilli [01:14:44] Well, this festival, August 15th is the highlight. It’s the big event of the year.

Richard Gallitto [01:14:52] That’s older than the church, older than the parish when they first came here. Actually it’s right 160.

Frank Fiorilli [01:15:00] Yeah, well, it’s older to Parish because it was started by. It was really started by the lay people in Italy, traditionally the lay people ran the festivals, but after a while we had a hard nosed Italian monsignor who said, well, you may do it that way, you may take over in Italy, but you’re not going to do it here. So from then on it’s run by the pastor.

Richard Gallitto [01:15:26] Yeah, it wasn’t like. Well, it wasn’t as elaborate as it turned out to be. It was a religious procession with a few days and people came and that was it.

Frank Fiorilli [01:15:36] Yeah. So it’s a big event.

Richard Gallitto [01:15:37] It’s a four day event.

Frank Fiorilli [01:15:39] It’s a four day event and it’s probably the best and most popular festival in the state of Ohio.

Richard Gallitto [01:15:45] Well, what’s unique about it is that the profits, whatever they are, go to tuitions to help people with their Catholic education and public schools. So each kid gets what, a thousand dollars?

Frank Fiorilli [01:15:59] Well, it helps the church with the tuition that they pay. We paid part of the tuition for children who live in the parish go to a Catholic school and we pay part of their tuition, which is rare. And secondly, a lot of these merchants, I think a third of their income for the whole year, that’s another made during those four days.

Richard Gallitto [01:16:25] That’s such a headache for everybody here. They’re out to make every pay penny they can during those four days. And they probably make enough to sustain them for the whole year pretty much. I mean, they turn it into money making. You know, it happens with every event. Somebody’s always want to make a buck. They come out in droves.

Frank Fiorilli [01:16:51] But lately city hall has put some control on it.

Richard Gallitto [01:16:57] Well, we always worry about eruptions, especially what’s going on now with these mobs, flash mob things and this kind of. These things are like ripe for that kind of nonsense. So he’s got to worry about that.

James Lanese [01:17:18] Ken, did you have any questions?

Richard Gallitto [01:17:23] Well, what else we know.

Frank Fiorilli [01:17:25] Yeah.

Richard Gallitto [01:17:27] Frank has been the pillar of this church for as long as I can remember. He’s always in the forefront of the procession.

Frank Fiorilli [01:17:35] Well, I, I’ve been carrying, I’ve been carrying the cross in procession for quite some time. I, I think a couple years ago somebody interviewed me and asked me how long I had been carrying it. Why have I been carrying it for so long and I made the statement. I guess I’m carrying it because I’m the oldest, altar boy in the parish, which of course is not the reason why I’m carrying it. I think the reason why I’m not carrying it is because I have. I am not very pleased with the formation of the altar boys in the Catholic Church. I’m not just talking about holy wars here. I’m talking about. And so because of that, I’ve made a commitment that if anybody’s going to lead that Procession, I’m going to lead it because I know how it should be led. Now, of course I’ll lead it the way I think it should be led. And 99% of the people in the procession don’t follow me. But at least the person in the front is going to do it. Right?

Richard Gallitto [01:18:44] A long way to go with that.

Frank Fiorilli [01:18:45] But anyways, now I’ve reached a point where my legs can’t do it anymore. So last year it just about knocked me out the heat. And the cross is no heavier today than it was 60 years ago when I started it, but it’s heavier.

Richard Gallitto [01:19:04] But he’s been the longest serving altar server.

Frank Fiorilli [01:19:06] Yeah, I’ve been the eldest.

Richard Gallitto [01:19:07] Right.

Frank Fiorilli [01:19:08] Yeah.

Richard Gallitto [01:19:09] I don’t think anybody has served as.

Frank Fiorilli [01:19:11] I go back there about the Latin Mass.

Richard Gallitto [01:19:14] Did you go back to Monsignor Ttivasin? Did you know him?

Frank Fiorilli [01:19:21] Yeah, yeah, I, he, I served for him. He wouldn’t have took over the feast from the. From them, from the community.

Richard Gallitto [01:19:28] That’s my earliest memory.

Frank Fiorilli [01:19:30] He was. He was quite a character. He was a monsignor. Of course, he comes from a family of priests. I think they have at least Louis, two or three of them.

Richard Gallitto [01:19:43] That’s as far as I remember.

Frank Fiorilli [01:19:44] By the way, I think I’ve served Mass for at least. At least eight pastors we’ve had in this church.

Richard Gallitto [01:19:51] At least eight.

Frank Fiorilli [01:19:52] And every one of them, one is quite different. And the one that stands out and my memory is, of course, this Monsignor. And the other would be an Irishman, a McBride. And he was the only one that.

Richard Gallitto [01:20:11] Got the mortgage paid off.

Frank Fiorilli [01:20:13] Yeah, he got the mortgage paid off. I think he got the mortgage paid off because he was able to talk to the guys who hanged out at the bars.

Richard Gallitto [01:20:22] He got along well with-

Frank Fiorilli [01:20:24] You got along with those guys very well. And then of course, this congregation of St. Joseph, they were here for about 12 years, weren’t they? Well, they’re exceptional people and they were amazing. It really brought back the Italian culture. I mean, we had the 12 years they were here. We had a magnificent Italian folk singing group, and we had one so much so that we were being invited different parts of Northeast Ohio just to entertain. We had a repertoire, but of course we were even invited to go to Rome or Italy, sing there five or six of the basilicas there. But so those. Those priests from Italy were amazing because the Italian culture was really diminishing because people were moving out to the suburbs. But once these guys came in, a lot of the Italians came back into the. Into the parish. But Father Rocco, to me, was a godsend. He was a man that came at the right time. I mean, there were changes taking place, and I think he was the only guy who was able to deal with it.

Richard Gallitto [01:21:46] 22 years.

Frank Fiorilli [01:21:47] He’d get that very long time. That’s a long time for a pastor. Lived longer than some of the popes.

Richard Gallitto [01:21:56] He lasted.

Frank Fiorilli [01:21:57] He lasted longer.

Richard Gallitto [01:21:58] Yeah. He had to go to. He was transferred to St. Bernard in Westlake.

Frank Fiorilli [01:22:06] Went from reorganized, left a congregation of 600 to a congregation of 3,000.

Richard Gallitto [01:22:11] Oh, yeah, 20 acres. Quite a difference from this area.

Frank Fiorilli [01:22:21] So.

Richard Gallitto [01:22:23] How are we doing so far?

James Lanese [01:22:25] Very good.

James Lanese [01:22:26] Thank you very much.

Richard Gallitto [01:22:27] Anything else?

James Lanese [01:22:29] If there’s anything you’d like to add, you’re welcome to add.

Frank Fiorilli [01:22:31] No, I think my wife says I talk too much.

Richard Gallitto [01:22:40] Well, you have all his. This is a real good one, too. This is the 50th anniversary. Yeah.

Frank Fiorilli [01:22:47] And then this was during Father Tamburri, wasn’t it?

James Lanese [01:22:50] 1959?

Richard Gallitto [01:22:54] Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s a caricature of him there.

Frank Fiorilli [01:22:58] We had some good priests. There was a priest here, and during this racial turmoil, racial problem, we had some good priests here who were very level headed, meaning they knew how to deal with the situation, even to the point that it upsets some of the people in the neighborhood, but they were able to deal with it. And of course, I know the one pastor, Father Gaspari. I mean, he was a gem of a priest, lovable person, very, very sympathetic.

Richard Gallitto [01:23:37] He bore the brunt of that.

Frank Fiorilli [01:23:38] But he. But he got. The media gave him a hard time during that whole turmoil. But Father Rocco, when he came here, he let the people know where he stood on racial issues. And of course, he had something. What do you call it, Not a club, but he had an element. You either do it the way I think it should be done or we’re not going to have our festival. And so people got in line. And of course. And I think that’s the reason why he lasted so long, because the people, some of the people he rubbed wrong because they wouldn’t go and keep in line with what the church wanted us to do with regards to liturgy, family relationships. And the last three priests, pastors we had here, I’ve been very pleased with them.

James Lanese [01:24:49] Thank you very much.

Frank Fiorilli [01:24:50] Thank you very much. I hope you can do it. Actually, this is the third time I’ve sat to such a session and I’ve never heard what happened to the other.

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