Abstract
Carol Malone, a current Central resident, recalls her past growing up in Glenville and Shaker. She describes her family life and what predominantly African American neighborhoods were like at a young age and compares them to today. She describes businesses in the Central neighborhood, notably Roberts Bike Shop, the largest Black-owned Schwinn dealer in Ohio. Malone also discusses African Americans’ moves into Glenville (nicknamed the “Gold Coast”) and Shaker Heights.
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Interviewee
Malone, Carol (Interviewee)
Interviewer
Downer, Nick (Interviewer)
Project
Cedar Central
Date
2-6-2013
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
61 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Carol Malone Interview, 6 February 2013" (2013). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 131001.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/593
Transcript
Nick Downer [00:00:02] My name is Nick Downer. I’ll be the interviewer for this particular interview. We are at Cleveland State University on the 13th floor, and I’ll be talking to Carol Malone. Carol, can you introduce yourself?
Carol Malone [00:00:13] Yes, my name is Carol Malone. I’m a resident born and raised here in Cleveland, Ohio.
Nick Downer [00:00:19] What can you tell me about living in the Central neighborhood?
Carol Malone [00:00:23] Well, I moved to the Central neighborhood in, let’s say, December of 2009. But my history goes a little bit back further than that. But for me, I came back to the community in December 2009, and I moved into Outhwaite housing estates.
Nick Downer [00:00:44] So how long have you been associated with Cleveland? What’s your family history here?
Carol Malone [00:00:49] Well, all of my life, but my parents were a part of the migration coming from the South, really going back to when I found my uncle’s obituary. His name was John Wills. He joined Antioch Baptist Church in 1922. And my father said the first time he came here was in ’33. He came in the summer months to make money to send back home to his mother and his aunts, who lived in Birmingham, Alabama. Then he married my mom in 1941, came back to Cleveland. They lived on Golden Avenue, which is on 79th. And when I was going through my mother’s effects, my mother passed away in 2009, and I found a business card where she had a beauty parlor in the apartment. It was called the Powder Puff Beauty Parlor. And I had an uncle who had a cleaners on Cedar, Bell Cleaners. And my parents used to have two businesses on Central in the sixties.
Nick Downer [00:01:49] So you seem very, you seem like you have a lot of family history in the neighborhood. What can you- Do you ou have any early memories of growing up around those establishments that your family either ran or participated in?
Carol Malone [00:02:00] Well, I can tell you one of my earliest memories that just popped into my head was going to pick up my tricycle at Mr. Roberts’ bicycle shop. Mr. John Roberts owned a bicycle- He was the first African American to have a Schwinn dealership in the state of Ohio. And actually, the building that he constructed is still on Cedar. So going and getting my bicycle, and Mr. Roberts had a huge old fashioned bicycle, you know, with the one with the really big wheel and a little tiny wheel, and he had one that sat in the window. And on Saturdays, I would go shopping with my dad every Saturday and go to Sonny’s Barber Shop. Now, Sonny’s building is not there anymore, but there is a barbershop on Cedar, excuse me, on Central called the Artistic Barber Shop now. And I believe Mr. Johnson remembers Sonny’s Barber Shop. Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:02:49] Will we be talking to Mr. Johnson?
Carol Malone [00:02:51] Oh, I can certainly arrange that. It’s no problem.
Nick Downer [00:02:56] So you said you didn’t live in Central when you were growing up, right? You moved to Central more recently, but you always had connections with the neighborhood?
Carol Malone [00:03:04] Yeah, most definitely.
Nick Downer [00:03:05] How do you usually get to Central then?
Carol Malone [00:03:08] Well, when I was a kid, my parents had a car, so we would drive over there. And of course at church, Antioch Baptist Church, was still right there in 89th and Cedar. And then when I came back to the community in 2009, public transportation.
Nick Downer [00:03:24] Where would you say the centers for Black life were when you were growing up? You know, where did African Americans, you go either to hang out or to learn? Were there specific centers of-
Carol Malone [00:03:36] Oh, yeah, definitely. When I was a kid, when I was little, always coming back to the Central neighborhood, Cedar-Central, you had tons of businesses, organizations, social organizations, churches. I mean, just that was pretty much the center of Black, of the African American Black community here in Cleveland.
Mark Tebeau [00:03:58] I’m going to go. It’s been delightful meeting both of you. [crosstalk] I’ll see you next week. [To Nick] As you ask her, be very specific. I want to know more, for instance, about that Schwinn dealership. When did you visit it? How old? You know, really, those details will help jog her memory very well. Started off really great. [crosstalk] Lovely. Me too. Nice meeting you too as well. I’ll be just down the hall if you need anything at all.
Carol Malone [00:04:27] We’ll see you next week.
Nick Downer [00:04:32] Personally, I’m really curious. What do you remember the Cedar neighborhood, or the Central neighborhood rather, looking like, you know, when you would go down there was, you know, clearly there’s been a lot of disinvestment in recent years and a lot of buildings have gone. Do you remember it being a very, you know, neighborhood full of life?
Carol Malone [00:04:47] Very- Neighborhood full of life. Very much a residential community. I mean, my aunt’s house, my aunt lived on 88th off Quincy. She bought that house in. The house was built in 1905, she bought the house in 1945 and lived in the house from 1945, oh my gosh, until she lived in that house until 2001. From 1945 to, I believe, I think she moved out of it in maybe 2000, 2001. And it was a residential community, homes, grocery stores, corner stores, churches, everything that, you know, every neighborhood has. Unfortunately, you know, because of desegregation, well, because of segregation and Jim Crow laws, you know, you know, African Americans, you know, were in a certain part of the city and unfortunately with other social groups too, you know.
Nick Downer [00:05:46] What do you remember the racial demographics being when you, your childhood memories there? Were there white people around or was it predominantly black or white?
Carol Malone [00:05:54] Well, that’s a very good question. I’m sure that there were, because since I’ve been back in the community and I’ve done a lot of walking around and talking to people, I have met numerous non African Americans. So, yeah, my family used to live in this neighborhood and my grandmother, my honor uncle, or, as I shared with you a story, the gentleman who owned, Alan Bees, his father had a grocery store, I believe he told me over here on Case Court. So definitely. And then I met- I spoke with someone towards the middle of last year when I was talking to them about my interest in history, and they were telling me about a young man who did a- I think he did his PhD here at CSU, and he was talking about nightclubs owned by Jewish Americans on 105 that many Black people would frequent. So, yeah.
Nick Downer [00:06:43] So, you know, clearly, the church was a big center of life for you, and that was a big, you know-
Carol Malone [00:06:49] In any Black community. Absolutely. Church was the focal point of everything.
Nick Downer [00:06:55] And you said you had a couple relatives who lived in Central?
Carol Malone [00:06:59] Mm hmm.
Nick Downer [00:07:00] But you actually were living in Glenville at the time.
Carol Malone [00:07:02] Right. My parents moved in 1941. My parents married, and my parents moved on Empire in 1947.
Nick Downer [00:07:10] What do you remember about Glenville at the time?
Carol Malone [00:07:12] Oh, man. It’s so funny because I have pictures on my parents house. I was going through finding stuff today, so just a really nice house. I remember my parents- My dad was 21, my mom was 20. They paid, I believe, $6,000 for the house in 1947. They were the 7th Black family to move on Empire. It was a predominantly Jewish community at the time. I entered Miles Standish - I can’t believe I can remember - Miles Standish Elementary School. My brother went to Miles Standish for a while. Around the corner, man, was Mr. Williams’ grocery store, and we would always go in there. Then, it was on the corner of 93rd in Yale, was an ice cream store that stayed there for years. So anybody who lived in the area knew what the Dippy Whip was. The Dippy Whip was an ice cream store that’s on the corner of 93rd and Yale. It was there forever. And upstairs, my godparents lived in that building. They lived in that building for 40 years. George Bradshaw, Uncle Polly and Uncle George. Oh, my God. And I loved going to the Rockefeller Greenhouse, which is still there. I love going to Rockefeller Greenhouse.
Nick Downer [00:08:29] Just east of MLK, right? Off East Boulevard?
Carol Malone [00:08:31] Yep. And walking to- I remember walking. Everybody waited every spring for the fountains to come on, for the city to turn the fountains on, because for a long time after the riots in the sixties, the fountains were turned off, and now they’re back on.
Nick Downer [00:08:54] So, actually, I would be interested to know about this probably is not as relevant to the Central project, but personally, I would be interested to know what were the- What was MLK like with those Cultural Gardens back when, you know, do you remember hanging out there?
Carol Malone [00:09:06] I remember walking to the Cultural Gardens with my parents. I remember when the lanes, when it was a two-lane street and not a one-lane street. They reduced it to a one-lane street. I just remember hearing, because maybe a lot of accidents. There were a lot of accidents on that street. And then they had lowered the speed limit. But just always very nice. Like I said, the most exciting part when you were a little kid was waiting for the fountains to come on, you know. Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:09:34] So when- I don’t, I mean, it’s probably tough to remember these things when you were really little. And you may not have thought to ask at the time, you know, you always think about it later. But did you ever pick up on any perception in the Black community about what reputation Central had? You know, is that, you know, was it a prestigious neighborhood? What were Black people’s feelings about, you know, if you told them, I’m from central, what were they likely to respond with?
Carol Malone [00:09:59] You know, well, you know, it’s a very good question. I never got anything negative. I never got a negative perception. I knew that that was a part of town where, you know, where my dad would go every Saturday after he went shopping. He went to Sonny’s barber shop to get his hair cut. You had restaurants. I never got anything negative. I just knew that that was the community that, where my people lived in. I didn’t really know anything about Shaker until my parents moved there in 1960.
Nick Downer [00:10:38] And what about Glenville, you know, from the point of view of a Black person? Was this somewhere that was pretty unknown, pretty unexplored before Black families started moving in? What was the perception of Glenville?
Carol Malone [00:10:49] Well, you know, it’s really funny. Oh, wow. This is very interesting. One of my mother’s memories when my parents moved in Glenville, like I said, my dad was 21, my mom was 20, and Glenville was considered the Gold Coast. I understand that, like, you know, Lakewood was the Gold Coast, but no, Lakewood was never the real Gold Coast. The original Gold Coast was Glenville. And I can remember my mother remarking that when she and my dad bought their house, you know, people thought they were like, oh, you think you’re a hoity toity? You know, and Mommy said she would have to, like, when she would, people would ask her where she lives, you know, people say, oh, you live on the Gold Coast. You know, that was just like, oh, you’re in Beachwood, you’re in Shaker. So I definitely- That whole attitude about moving into Glenville was moving, for African Americans, moving into the middle class, an upper middle class, because that’s where our doctors lived, our lawyers lived, you know, our teachers or people affiliated with, you know, your blue-collar workers, your postal workers, people moved to Glenville.
Nick Downer [00:11:51] So, I’m sorry, could you restate what your parents’ occupations were at that time?
Carol Malone [00:11:56] When my dad worked for the Ohio Bureau of Employment Services for 43 years. My mother, when I was born, had a beauty salon at 93rd and Yale called Maddie’s Beauty Nook. And she had the salon, I guess, from maybe definitely from 1947 to maybe like 1959. She had a salon a long time. And then she decided she wanted to go into education and went back to prepare herself to be a Cleveland public school teacher. And she taught- Ended up teaching for 38 years.
Nick Downer [00:12:33] I remember when we were talking to Bobby in the Central Bath House the other day, you were talking about how you remember East Tech, right? That was you, wasn’t it?
Carol Malone [00:12:41] Yeah, East Tech was a powerhouse. I mean, you know, I- It’s really for- Cause when I- When Shaker desegregated the school system, like I said, we bought our house in 1960. I think Shaker desegregated in the, like, late fifties. So, you know, kids going, especially Black kids going to Shaker school system at that time, we were affectionately referred to as Shaker Squares, you know, but East Tech, John Adams, Glenville, East High were huge, powerhouse schools, especially East Tech. Big reputation. I think the night that I graduated from Shaker, we graduated downtown at Public Auditorium. We were on the smaller auditorium side. And I think the same night, it was, I want to say it was East Tech’s class. East Tech or John Adams, huge, huge number. They had, like, seven or 800 kids graduating, which those numbers now are, unfortunately, unheard of.
Nick Downer [00:13:46] So what was your educational history?
Carol Malone [00:13:48] In terms of?
Nick Downer [00:13:49] In terms of where you went to school for the- You know, like, did you- You went to Shaker, you said?
Carol Malone [00:13:54] Well, I still- Yeah, I went to- When my parents moved in Glenville, I went to Miles Standish, and then I spent a year in kindergarten there. And on my way to kindergarten, then my parents purchased a home in Shaker for $25,000. Brand-new house built from the ground up, which you can’t get for that price now. And then I went to Ludlow. But my mother had me do kindergarten over because I couldn’t read well. So she had them put me back. So I started kindergarten all over again at Ludlow and went from Ludlow to Woodbury to Shaker.
Nick Downer [00:14:28] What do you remember about your educational experiences? You know, were the transitions between school districts particularly difficult? Did you have fun in school? I mean, you know, what was your experience?
Carol Malone [00:14:37] It wasn’t a difficult transition for me at all. It was definitely that time period of the late fifties. You know, 1960. You know, you had my teacher. It’s really interesting when I look at my kindergarten report card from Miles Standish, and I was all A’s and B’s and the teacher just talking about my intellect and motivating, telling my parents to motivate me because I was really very bright. And then moving to Shaker school system. Now, the Ludlow area voluntarily desegregated. And as I shared with you, you can go online to pull up a documentary by Mr. Paul Mason, who did a documentary around the board of education. The Brown versusoard of Education 40th anniversary. When I got to Ludlow, you know, when you look back on it now, this was really kind of a very college prep education of things we were doing because I can remember, like typing papers with footnotes in the 6th grade. I mean, kids don’t even do that now. You know? [laughs] You know, the index, the three by five index cards. Suffice it to say, yeah, you had teachers who were encouraging and you had teachers who just flat out did not want to teach Black children, period. You weren’t gonna be any smarter than a B, any smarter than a D or a C. And even if you were smarter than that, they weren’t going to give you a A or B. So, you know, I think it just really depended on, you know, your parents, your parents instilling in you that you can do whatever you want to do.
Nick Downer [00:16:16] And what was the, you know, what was the effect of that sort of White teachers not wanting to teach Black kids on you at the time? Did it really affect you? Or is it something that you look back on?
Carol Malone [00:16:28] Oh, yeah, I think it definitely does have an effect on the child. You know, no question about it. I mean, you, you know, you got, you know, you definitely remember stories of, you know, like I share, it’s a story I shared with you about my counselor at Shaker, who looked at me and told me, you know, Carol, you’re not college material. You’ll never make it. You’re better off at Tri-C or the two-year school at the University of Cincinnati. And I told you, I looked at her and I said, and you know what? And thank you and you have a nice day. And when I got my letter of acceptance to Boston University, I told you, I went in her office and I literally slapped it down on her desk and made her read it. And then I proceeded to speak to her very nicely for the last two months of school just to sort of annoy her, you know. But, you know, you did- You did have some teachers or a teacher I had at my senior year. I- We were doing. It was my- I can’t- Mr. Ned Martin. I can’t remember what he taught at Shaker at the time. I know he used to be the driving teacher. Nervous dude. And I wanted to do a paper on Miles Davis. It was along the subject matter. And he looked at me and he told me, no, Miles Davis hadn’t done anything noteworthy in the area of music. It’s like, excuse me? I did the paper anyway, to which he gave me an F. And so my parents had to come up and have a little conversation with him, and he switched my grade to D. [laughs] So. That was the only D I got on my report card for my senior year.
Nick Downer [00:18:07] It’s really interesting. What were other kids experiences like? You know, the kids, the Black kids who you were going to school with around the same time, were they all motivated by this type of racism or what was their approach to it?
Carol Malone [00:18:24] Well, it was very interesting that you asked that question, because when I think back about the documentary that Paul Mason did and the parents that he interviewed or whose parents? You know, everybody in that documentary, I grew up with, everybody I knew. And one of the parents, Miss Olmsted, had commented that, you know, in many respects, the African American parents who were moving in were much more educated. Why? I mean, just, you know, the nature of racism in this country and Jim Crow segregation and white supremacy, that Black people had to run faster, jump higher, be better, better. You just had to be, you know, and in many respects, that still applies. You know, there was just no room for you not to do well. It was just something that was expected. This is like going to college, I always tell people, I don’t think my first word was mommy or daddy. I think my first word was college because as long as I can remember, it was always not, are you going? But where are you going? It was just something that was understood. There was nothing. There was nothing about you’re not going to college.
Nick Downer [00:19:22] Were your parents college educated?
Carol Malone [00:19:23] Yes. As a matter of fact, my father, both my parents went to Alabama A and M. Both of my parents were very smart people. My father actually graduated from high school when he was 16. He would have gone like, 14 or 15. But his mother was kind of worried about, whoa, you’re moving too fast. She made him, put him back. So he got to Alabama A and M in 1936 and finished school, I think, age 18, 1939. My mother got there after my dad, and she didn’t finish it at A and M. My dad married in ’41, and she came. My mother actually finished at Kent State, but my grandmother, my mother’s mother, went back to school when she was an adult, and I think my grandmother graduated from high school when she was 33. [laughs] We used to jokingly tease her because she was. We called her a going to school fool because my grandmother, always in school, she was very involved in it. And that’s as I was looking through her stuff today to prepare to meet with you, and I was even asking a question of myself. How did my grandmother, or, for that matter, how did Black people here in Cleveland find ways to cope with segregation and just blatant racism? And I saw becoming involved in their communities, you know, okay, I may not be able to eat at the lunch counter at Woolworth’s downtown, but you can’t stop me from getting involved with the Red Cross or doing something in my neighborhood with kids or- I just found a card, two cards, with my grandmother, Birmingham, Alabama. She had memberships to the Museum of Art, Birmingham, Alabama, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s. So they found ways to be involved with their city, to be involved with their community, even though they were shut out of other places.
Nick Downer [00:21:16] Did you feel like ever, when you were growing up, was your impression that that was especially true in Central because it was the historic heart of Black Cleveland, or did you feel like it was just like anywhere else, you know?
Carol Malone [00:21:29] No, that’s a very good question. And, yes, I did think that there was something special about this Central neighborhood. I did. I couldn’t put my finger on it. But now that you’ve asked that question, yeah. And when I- And being in the neighborhood over the last three years and not talking to people like you’re talking to me, I mean, people have a serious, deep affection for the Central neighborhood. The minute you start talking to people, at least people who are old enough to remember what it used to look like, the stories will come at you like crazy.
Nick Downer [00:22:01] So you’ve lived in Cleveland all your life?
Carol Malone [00:22:03] Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:22:04] Did you, at any point, did you get a sense, you know, there’s been a pretty significant population loss in Central.
Carol Malone [00:22:10] Yes.
Nick Downer [00:22:10] Over the years. Was there ever, you know, did you ever feel like there was maybe a specific time that was a tipping point or, you know, suddenly you came back to the neighborhood, you’re like, wow, it’s so different from what I remember?
Carol Malone [00:22:24] I think- I think as people, I think as our country began to shift during the Civil Rights movement, desegregation, more open housing as people, and you had the Fair Housing Act, and people were not allowed to blatantly discriminate, and people could move where they wanted to move to. And then this whole idea of integration, that’s when things began to change. When people would say, okay, I love the Central neighborhood, but I don’t have to. I’m not locked into living here now. I can move to Cleveland Heights. Like I said, my parents moved from there to Glenville, and many Blacks moved from Glenville to Cleveland Heights to Shaker Heights, to Warrensville Heights.
Nick Downer [00:23:17] So what do you think? You know, what do you think made them want to leave Central? Was it the housing stock wasn’t that good, and you could buy better houses in other parts of the city now that-?
Carol Malone [00:23:26] I would say that’s a combination of probably both. You know, you’ve got older housing stock and just, and just the whole idea of, it’s kind of hard for you as a young White male to wrap your mind around living in a society that literally federally mandates racism. It’s kind of hard to wrap your head around that. And so when you’ve lived under those kinds of constraints and your parents try to protect you from that, but when you’re living under those kinds of restraints, and now an opportunity presents itself, or you can live somewhere else, you’re gonna take that. You’re gonna take the opportunity. You’re gonna take that chance, you know, and it really was taking a chance, because when my parents moved from Empire to Albion in 1960, people used to ride up and down our street and yell n—– and shoot off guns, and I’ll happily- Klan burned a cross on my girlfriend’s father’s lawn, Mr. Holmes, ’cause he was working for the NAACP. Lady across the street poisoned my cat. I mean, you know, but you had to take those chances if you wanted to, you know, have a better life for your children, more exposure. And not to say that you couldn’t have a better life living in Central, but once again, I go back to it’s hard to wrap your head around living in a society that literally restricted your movement and where you could be.
Nick Downer [00:24:49] So it sounds like you’re saying from your point of view, the reason that many Blacks moved out of the Central neighborhood once they could was almost a demonstration of ability. When freedom is offered, you take that chance. And it wasn’t necessarily anything to do with the Central neighborhood?
Carol Malone [00:25:07] Right. Exactly. Exactly. I don’t think it had anything to do with the fact that we’re trying to run away from the Central neighborhood. Not that at all. I really don’t get that sense. And even from older people that I’ve talked to. Not at all. Cause like I said, the fondness for the community and the love for the neighborhood is still very much there.
Nick Downer [00:25:26] Do you remember when they started putting in the big projects down there?
Carol Malone [00:25:29] No, I don’t. Because I think Cedar. I want to say Cedar Estates, wasn’t that put up in the thirties?
Nick Downer [00:25:36] Yeah, I think so.
Carol Malone [00:25:37] I think it was in the thirties. Now, I’m sure if my parents were- But I’m sure that you’ll be- I’m sure I’ll be able to find people who’ll be able to give you that memory. Especially, I can think of somebody right off the top of my head right now as Judge Jean Murrell Capers. She’s getting ready to be 100 years old. She- Okay. Right. [laughs] Wait, we’ll do it off tape. Right, but you were saying. I digressed for a moment.
Nick Downer [00:26:02] I was just saying, had you been able to remember that maybe that was, you know, a tipping point where sort of things started to change? Because, you know, when you go down there now and you look between the subsidized housing, clearly that wasn’t, you know, that’s not the natural way it was clearly that had been cleared out.
Carol Malone [00:26:19] Right. Right.
Nick Downer [00:26:22] Do you- Can you remember before they were there?
Carol Malone [00:26:27] You know, I kind of can. I can because I can remember shopping with my father and going down to the East Side Market before. Before the stadium was built. Yeah, I do have that memory of going down where the market was before the stadium. I can remember. I can vaguely remember the houses because Tri-C wasn’t there. Tri-C has been built in my lifetime. Yeah, I do remember the houses.
Nick Downer [00:27:04] It would be great. I don’t know. We need to find some pictures of, you know, what the neighborhood was like before they went up because I did a little bit of research before I came just to see what I could find, and I didn’t see any pictures online, you know, any of the databases.
Carol Malone [00:27:18] You know what? I bet you we might have to either check here or go to the library or the archives over on Franklin and see if we can dig up and talking to neighbors. There are people that still live in the Central neighborhood who were there before Tri-C and are still there.
Nick Downer [00:27:33] Right. Do you- What do you think of Central now? Being a current resident what do you think of Central’s current condition?
Carol Malone [00:27:42] Well, let’s see. Because when I moved into my apartment over on South Moreland, the irony is I’m right around the corner now from the house I grew up in off Albion Road off of Buckeye. And I really wanted to stay in the community.
Nick Downer [00:27:58] In the Shaker community?
Carol Malone [00:27:59] No, I really actually wanted to stay in the Central- I wanted to stay in the Central neighborhood because I’m still very involved in the Central neighborhood. What do I think of it now? I still have a very deep fondness for the community. I kind of, you know, they’re building housing in the neighborhood. And I’ve often said, I’ve often described it this way, is that it’s a neighborhood, you know, surrounded by a lot of opulence. And unfortunately, you’ve got a lot of kids in that community who’ve not really ventured far beyond that community, you know, who don’t know about the- About where we’re sitting right here at Cleveland State or going to the museum or Playhouse Square, you know, with all of the vacant land. Okay, so. Cause, you know, you went to school to be a planner. So- So did I. So, you know, here comes the dream side of me, okay? Because I look at the neighborhood, and I look at all that land, and I’m saying to myself, okay, now you have a huge, impoverished population, what, 90-some percent of households are headed up by women in the Central neighborhood. Why can’t some jobs be brought to that neighborhood? You’ve got a lot of vacant land. You’ve got a lot of institutions and corporations. You know, you’ve got a huge corporation in the center of the neighborhood. Vossloh, which used to be Cleveland Train Tracking Company, which is a billion-dollar company. You know, I envision there could be a natural parkway. You know, like growing up in Shaker, you had the Shaker Nature Center. There isn’t a reason that you can’t have a Central Nature Center. I think it’s really about a perception of a community. Oh, these are people in the projects. They don’t know. They don’t care about that. Yeah, they do. And I’m an old-school, get on the ground kind of person. You know, you got to get on the ground and talk to people. You got to be able to go in their house and break bread with them. You know, you can’t worry about. Okay, so you saw a roach. So what? Sit down and have a conversation. You know what I’m saying? You got to avail yourself.
Nick Downer [00:30:11] You know, you were earlier in the interview, you were talking about how you felt like Black people’s response to segregation and racism outright was to, you know, to volunteer to get involved in groups and projects.
Carol Malone [00:30:26] Yeah. Because I was wondering how my grandmother did in Birmingham, Alabama.
Nick Downer [00:30:29] Exactly. What do you-
Carol Malone [00:30:30] My parents too.
Nick Downer [00:30:32] Do you still see the same amount of enthusiasm for that kind of thing in the black community today? And if not, what do you- You know, why not?
Carol Malone [00:30:39] Well, I think what’s happening now is that you have such a tough time with unemployment. In the Black community, we always had a saying, black people last hired, first fire. That’s still true. You know, where you have competition for many African Americans, and you have gone on, we’ve gone on to get our undergraduates, our masters, our PhDs. As a matter of fact, there’s a documentary done by Mario van Peebles. It was done two years ago. I can’t think of the name of it right now. Where he interviewed- He took young Black guys, White guys, White guy who had no diploma, criminal record. Black guy, college degree, no criminal record. Guess who got the job? White guy with no degree. I think right now, the thing that’s pressing Americans, period, across the board, are jobs. And so in a poor community, that makes it even more acute.
Nick Downer [00:31:38] Yeah, definitely. I was reading a study that was saying that, you know, the national average for unemployment, the unemployment rate is, you know, currently, you know, between nine and 12%. But in predominantly Black communities, especially inner city it’s easily 20 percent.
Carol Malone [00:31:56] Easy. Higher. You can take it higher than that. Yeah. For teen, for young people, unemployment? Oh, absolutely. It’s very, very, very high. So one of the things that, you know, I would like to see is that, you know, you’ve got jobs that go to, you know, t
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