Carol Malone, a current Central resident, recalls her past growing up in Glenville and Shaker. She describes her family life and what predominantly African American neighborhoods were like at a young age and compares them to today. She describes businesses in the Central neighborhood, notably Roberts Bike Shop, the largest Black-owned Schwinn dealer in Ohio. Malone also discusses African Americans’ moves into Glenville (nicknamed the “Gold Coast”) and Shaker Heights.


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Carol Malone (Interviewee)


Nick Downer (Interviewer)


Cedar Central



Document Type

Oral History


61 minutes


Nick Downer [00:00:02] My name is Nick Downer. I’ll be the interviewer for this particular interview. We are at Cleveland State University on the 13th floor, and I’ll be talking to Carol Malone. Carol, can you introduce yourself?

Carol Malone [00:00:13] Yes, my name is Carol Malone. I’m a resident born and raised here in Cleveland, Ohio.

Nick Downer [00:00:19] What can you tell me about living in the Central neighborhood?

Carol Malone [00:00:23] Well, I moved to the Central neighborhood in, let’s say, December of 2009. But my history goes a little bit back further than that. But for me, I came back to the community in December 2009, and I moved into Outhwaite housing estates.

Nick Downer [00:00:44] So how long have you been associated with Cleveland? What’s your family history here?

Carol Malone [00:00:49] Well, all of my life, but my parents were a part of the migration coming from the South, really going back to when I found my uncle’s obituary. His name was John Wills. He joined Antioch Baptist Church in 1922. And my father said the first time he came here was in ’33. He came in the summer months to make money to send back home to his mother and his aunts, who lived in Birmingham, Alabama. Then he married my mom in 1941, came back to Cleveland. They lived on Golden Avenue, which is on 79th. And when I was going through my mother’s effects, my mother passed away in 2009, and I found a business card where she had a beauty parlor in the apartment. It was called the Powder Puff Beauty Parlor. And I had an uncle who had a cleaners on Cedar, Bell Cleaners. And my parents used to have two businesses on Central in the sixties.

Nick Downer [00:01:49] So you seem very, you seem like you have a lot of family history in the neighborhood. What can you- Do you ou have any early memories of growing up around those establishments that your family either ran or participated in?

Carol Malone [00:02:00] Well, I can tell you one of my earliest memories that just popped into my head was going to pick up my tricycle at Mr. Roberts’ bicycle shop. Mr. John Roberts owned a bicycle- He was the first African American to have a Schwinn dealership in the state of Ohio. And actually, the building that he constructed is still on Cedar. So going and getting my bicycle, and Mr. Roberts had a huge old fashioned bicycle, you know, with the one with the really big wheel and a little tiny wheel, and he had one that sat in the window. And on Saturdays, I would go shopping with my dad every Saturday and go to Sonny’s Barber Shop. Now, Sonny’s building is not there anymore, but there is a barbershop on Cedar, excuse me, on Central called the Artistic Barber Shop now. And I believe Mr. Johnson remembers Sonny’s Barber Shop. Yeah.

Nick Downer [00:02:49] Will we be talking to Mr. Johnson?

Carol Malone [00:02:51] Oh, I can certainly arrange that. It’s no problem.

Nick Downer [00:02:56] So you said you didn’t live in Central when you were growing up, right? You moved to Central more recently, but you always had connections with the neighborhood?

Carol Malone [00:03:04] Yeah, most definitely.

Nick Downer [00:03:05] How do you usually get to Central then?

Carol Malone [00:03:08] Well, when I was a kid, my parents had a car, so we would drive over there. And of course at church, Antioch Baptist Church, was still right there in 89th and Cedar. And then when I came back to the community in 2009, public transportation.

Nick Downer [00:03:24] Where would you say the centers for Black life were when you were growing up? You know, where did African Americans, you go either to hang out or to learn? Were there specific centers of-

Carol Malone [00:03:36] Oh, yeah, definitely. When I was a kid, when I was little, always coming back to the Central neighborhood, Cedar-Central, you had tons of businesses, organizations, social organizations, churches. I mean, just that was pretty much the center of Black, of the African American Black community here in Cleveland.

Mark Tebeau [00:03:58] I’m going to go. It’s been delightful meeting both of you. [crosstalk] I’ll see you next week. [To Nick] As you ask her, be very specific. I want to know more, for instance, about that Schwinn dealership. When did you visit it? How old? You know, really, those details will help jog her memory very well. Started off really great. [crosstalk] Lovely. Me too. Nice meeting you too as well. I’ll be just down the hall if you need anything at all.

Carol Malone [00:04:27] We’ll see you next week.

Nick Downer [00:04:32] Personally, I’m really curious. What do you remember the Cedar neighborhood, or the Central neighborhood rather, looking like, you know, when you would go down there was, you know, clearly there’s been a lot of disinvestment in recent years and a lot of buildings have gone. Do you remember it being a very, you know, neighborhood full of life?

Carol Malone [00:04:47] Very- Neighborhood full of life. Very much a residential community. I mean, my aunt’s house, my aunt lived on 88th off Quincy. She bought that house in. The house was built in 1905, she bought the house in 1945 and lived in the house from 1945, oh my gosh, until she lived in that house until 2001. From 1945 to, I believe, I think she moved out of it in maybe 2000, 2001. And it was a residential community, homes, grocery stores, corner stores, churches, everything that, you know, every neighborhood has. Unfortunately, you know, because of desegregation, well, because of segregation and Jim Crow laws, you know, you know, African Americans, you know, were in a certain part of the city and unfortunately with other social groups too, you know.

Nick Downer [00:05:46] What do you remember the racial demographics being when you, your childhood memories there? Were there white people around or was it predominantly black or white?

Carol Malone [00:05:54] Well, that’s a very good question. I’m sure that there were, because since I’ve been back in the community and I’ve done a lot of walking around and talking to people, I have met numerous non African Americans. So, yeah, my family used to live in this neighborhood and my grandmother, my honor uncle, or, as I shared with you a story, the gentleman who owned, Alan Bees, his father had a grocery store, I believe he told me over here on Case Court. So definitely. And then I met- I spoke with someone towards the middle of last year when I was talking to them about my interest in history, and they were telling me about a young man who did a- I think he did his PhD here at CSU, and he was talking about nightclubs owned by Jewish Americans on 105 that many Black people would frequent. So, yeah.

Nick Downer [00:06:43] So, you know, clearly, the church was a big center of life for you, and that was a big, you know-

Carol Malone [00:06:49] In any Black community. Absolutely. Church was the focal point of everything.

Nick Downer [00:06:55] And you said you had a couple relatives who lived in Central?

Carol Malone [00:06:59] Mm hmm.

Nick Downer [00:07:00] But you actually were living in Glenville at the time.

Carol Malone [00:07:02] Right. My parents moved in 1941. My parents married, and my parents moved on Empire in 1947.

Nick Downer [00:07:10] What do you remember about Glenville at the time?

Carol Malone [00:07:12] Oh, man. It’s so funny because I have pictures on my parents house. I was going through finding stuff today, so just a really nice house. I remember my parents- My dad was 21, my mom was 20. They paid, I believe, $6,000 for the house in 1947. They were the 7th Black family to move on Empire. It was a predominantly Jewish community at the time. I entered Miles Standish - I can’t believe I can remember - Miles Standish Elementary School. My brother went to Miles Standish for a while. Around the corner, man, was Mr. Williams’ grocery store, and we would always go in there. Then, it was on the corner of 93rd in Yale, was an ice cream store that stayed there for years. So anybody who lived in the area knew what the Dippy Whip was. The Dippy Whip was an ice cream store that’s on the corner of 93rd and Yale. It was there forever. And upstairs, my godparents lived in that building. They lived in that building for 40 years. George Bradshaw, Uncle Polly and Uncle George. Oh, my God. And I loved going to the Rockefeller Greenhouse, which is still there. I love going to Rockefeller Greenhouse.

Nick Downer [00:08:29] Just east of MLK, right? Off East Boulevard?

Carol Malone [00:08:31] Yep. And walking to- I remember walking. Everybody waited every spring for the fountains to come on, for the city to turn the fountains on, because for a long time after the riots in the sixties, the fountains were turned off, and now they’re back on.

Nick Downer [00:08:54] So, actually, I would be interested to know about this probably is not as relevant to the Central project, but personally, I would be interested to know what were the- What was MLK like with those Cultural Gardens back when, you know, do you remember hanging out there?

Carol Malone [00:09:06] I remember walking to the Cultural Gardens with my parents. I remember when the lanes, when it was a two-lane street and not a one-lane street. They reduced it to a one-lane street. I just remember hearing, because maybe a lot of accidents. There were a lot of accidents on that street. And then they had lowered the speed limit. But just always very nice. Like I said, the most exciting part when you were a little kid was waiting for the fountains to come on, you know. Yeah.

Nick Downer [00:09:34] So when- I don’t, I mean, it’s probably tough to remember these things when you were really little. And you may not have thought to ask at the time, you know, you always think about it later. But did you ever pick up on any perception in the Black community about what reputation Central had? You know, is that, you know, was it a prestigious neighborhood? What were Black people’s feelings about, you know, if you told them, I’m from central, what were they likely to respond with?

Carol Malone [00:09:59] You know, well, you know, it’s a very good question. I never got anything negative. I never got a negative perception. I knew that that was a part of town where, you know, where my dad would go every Saturday after he went shopping. He went to Sonny’s barber shop to get his hair cut. You had restaurants. I never got anything negative. I just knew that that was the community that, where my people lived in. I didn’t really know anything about Shaker until my parents moved there in 1960.

Nick Downer [00:10:38] And what about Glenville, you know, from the point of view of a Black person? Was this somewhere that was pretty unknown, pretty unexplored before Black families started moving in? What was the perception of Glenville?

Carol Malone [00:10:49] Well, you know, it’s really funny. Oh, wow. This is very interesting. One of my mother’s memories when my parents moved in Glenville, like I said, my dad was 21, my mom was 20, and Glenville was considered the Gold Coast. I understand that, like, you know, Lakewood was the Gold Coast, but no, Lakewood was never the real Gold Coast. The original Gold Coast was Glenville. And I can remember my mother remarking that when she and my dad bought their house, you know, people thought they were like, oh, you think you’re a hoity toity? You know, and Mommy said she would have to, like, when she would, people would ask her where she lives, you know, people say, oh, you live on the Gold Coast. You know, that was just like, oh, you’re in Beachwood, you’re in Shaker. So I definitely- That whole attitude about moving into Glenville was moving, for African Americans, moving into the middle class, an upper middle class, because that’s where our doctors lived, our lawyers lived, you know, our teachers or people affiliated with, you know, your blue-collar workers, your postal workers, people moved to Glenville.

Nick Downer [00:11:51] So, I’m sorry, could you restate what your parents’ occupations were at that time?

Carol Malone [00:11:56] When my dad worked for the Ohio Bureau of Employment Services for 43 years. My mother, when I was born, had a beauty salon at 93rd and Yale called Maddie’s Beauty Nook. And she had the salon, I guess, from maybe definitely from 1947 to maybe like 1959. She had a salon a long time. And then she decided she wanted to go into education and went back to prepare herself to be a Cleveland public school teacher. And she taught- Ended up teaching for 38 years.

Nick Downer [00:12:33] I remember when we were talking to Bobby in the Central Bath House the other day, you were talking about how you remember East Tech, right? That was you, wasn’t it?

Carol Malone [00:12:41] Yeah, East Tech was a powerhouse. I mean, you know, I- It’s really for- Cause when I- When Shaker desegregated the school system, like I said, we bought our house in 1960. I think Shaker desegregated in the, like, late fifties. So, you know, kids going, especially Black kids going to Shaker school system at that time, we were affectionately referred to as Shaker Squares, you know, but East Tech, John Adams, Glenville, East High were huge, powerhouse schools, especially East Tech. Big reputation. I think the night that I graduated from Shaker, we graduated downtown at Public Auditorium. We were on the smaller auditorium side. And I think the same night, it was, I want to say it was East Tech’s class. East Tech or John Adams, huge, huge number. They had, like, seven or 800 kids graduating, which those numbers now are, unfortunately, unheard of.

Nick Downer [00:13:46] So what was your educational history?

Carol Malone [00:13:48] In terms of?

Nick Downer [00:13:49] In terms of where you went to school for the- You know, like, did you- You went to Shaker, you said?

Carol Malone [00:13:54] Well, I still- Yeah, I went to- When my parents moved in Glenville, I went to Miles Standish, and then I spent a year in kindergarten there. And on my way to kindergarten, then my parents purchased a home in Shaker for $25,000. Brand-new house built from the ground up, which you can’t get for that price now. And then I went to Ludlow. But my mother had me do kindergarten over because I couldn’t read well. So she had them put me back. So I started kindergarten all over again at Ludlow and went from Ludlow to Woodbury to Shaker.

Nick Downer [00:14:28] What do you remember about your educational experiences? You know, were the transitions between school districts particularly difficult? Did you have fun in school? I mean, you know, what was your experience?

Carol Malone [00:14:37] It wasn’t a difficult transition for me at all. It was definitely that time period of the late fifties. You know, 1960. You know, you had my teacher. It’s really interesting when I look at my kindergarten report card from Miles Standish, and I was all A’s and B’s and the teacher just talking about my intellect and motivating, telling my parents to motivate me because I was really very bright. And then moving to Shaker school system. Now, the Ludlow area voluntarily desegregated. And as I shared with you, you can go online to pull up a documentary by Mr. Paul Mason, who did a documentary around the board of education. The Brown versusoard of Education 40th anniversary. When I got to Ludlow, you know, when you look back on it now, this was really kind of a very college prep education of things we were doing because I can remember, like typing papers with footnotes in the 6th grade. I mean, kids don’t even do that now. You know? [laughs] You know, the index, the three by five index cards. Suffice it to say, yeah, you had teachers who were encouraging and you had teachers who just flat out did not want to teach Black children, period. You weren’t gonna be any smarter than a B, any smarter than a D or a C. And even if you were smarter than that, they weren’t going to give you a A or B. So, you know, I think it just really depended on, you know, your parents, your parents instilling in you that you can do whatever you want to do.

Nick Downer [00:16:16] And what was the, you know, what was the effect of that sort of White teachers not wanting to teach Black kids on you at the time? Did it really affect you? Or is it something that you look back on?

Carol Malone [00:16:28] Oh, yeah, I think it definitely does have an effect on the child. You know, no question about it. I mean, you, you know, you got, you know, you definitely remember stories of, you know, like I share, it’s a story I shared with you about my counselor at Shaker, who looked at me and told me, you know, Carol, you’re not college material. You’ll never make it. You’re better off at Tri-C or the two-year school at the University of Cincinnati. And I told you, I looked at her and I said, and you know what? And thank you and you have a nice day. And when I got my letter of acceptance to Boston University, I told you, I went in her office and I literally slapped it down on her desk and made her read it. And then I proceeded to speak to her very nicely for the last two months of school just to sort of annoy her, you know. But, you know, you did- You did have some teachers or a teacher I had at my senior year. I- We were doing. It was my- I can’t- Mr. Ned Martin. I can’t remember what he taught at Shaker at the time. I know he used to be the driving teacher. Nervous dude. And I wanted to do a paper on Miles Davis. It was along the subject matter. And he looked at me and he told me, no, Miles Davis hadn’t done anything noteworthy in the area of music. It’s like, excuse me? I did the paper anyway, to which he gave me an F. And so my parents had to come up and have a little conversation with him, and he switched my grade to D. [laughs] So. That was the only D I got on my report card for my senior year.

Nick Downer [00:18:07] It’s really interesting. What were other kids experiences like? You know, the kids, the Black kids who you were going to school with around the same time, were they all motivated by this type of racism or what was their approach to it?

Carol Malone [00:18:24] Well, it was very interesting that you asked that question, because when I think back about the documentary that Paul Mason did and the parents that he interviewed or whose parents? You know, everybody in that documentary, I grew up with, everybody I knew. And one of the parents, Miss Olmsted, had commented that, you know, in many respects, the African American parents who were moving in were much more educated. Why? I mean, just, you know, the nature of racism in this country and Jim Crow segregation and white supremacy, that Black people had to run faster, jump higher, be better, better. You just had to be, you know, and in many respects, that still applies. You know, there was just no room for you not to do well. It was just something that was expected. This is like going to college, I always tell people, I don’t think my first word was mommy or daddy. I think my first word was college because as long as I can remember, it was always not, are you going? But where are you going? It was just something that was understood. There was nothing. There was nothing about you’re not going to college.

Nick Downer [00:19:22] Were your parents college educated?

Carol Malone [00:19:23] Yes. As a matter of fact, my father, both my parents went to Alabama A and M. Both of my parents were very smart people. My father actually graduated from high school when he was 16. He would have gone like, 14 or 15. But his mother was kind of worried about, whoa, you’re moving too fast. She made him, put him back. So he got to Alabama A and M in 1936 and finished school, I think, age 18, 1939. My mother got there after my dad, and she didn’t finish it at A and M. My dad married in ’41, and she came. My mother actually finished at Kent State, but my grandmother, my mother’s mother, went back to school when she was an adult, and I think my grandmother graduated from high school when she was 33. [laughs] We used to jokingly tease her because she was. We called her a going to school fool because my grandmother, always in school, she was very involved in it. And that’s as I was looking through her stuff today to prepare to meet with you, and I was even asking a question of myself. How did my grandmother, or, for that matter, how did Black people here in Cleveland find ways to cope with segregation and just blatant racism? And I saw becoming involved in their communities, you know, okay, I may not be able to eat at the lunch counter at Woolworth’s downtown, but you can’t stop me from getting involved with the Red Cross or doing something in my neighborhood with kids or- I just found a card, two cards, with my grandmother, Birmingham, Alabama. She had memberships to the Museum of Art, Birmingham, Alabama, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s. So they found ways to be involved with their city, to be involved with their community, even though they were shut out of other places.

Nick Downer [00:21:16] Did you feel like ever, when you were growing up, was your impression that that was especially true in Central because it was the historic heart of Black Cleveland, or did you feel like it was just like anywhere else, you know?

Carol Malone [00:21:29] No, that’s a very good question. And, yes, I did think that there was something special about this Central neighborhood. I did. I couldn’t put my finger on it. But now that you’ve asked that question, yeah. And when I- And being in the neighborhood over the last three years and not talking to people like you’re talking to me, I mean, people have a serious, deep affection for the Central neighborhood. The minute you start talking to people, at least people who are old enough to remember what it used to look like, the stories will come at you like crazy.

Nick Downer [00:22:01] So you’ve lived in Cleveland all your life?

Carol Malone [00:22:03] Yeah.

Nick Downer [00:22:04] Did you, at any point, did you get a sense, you know, there’s been a pretty significant population loss in Central.

Carol Malone [00:22:10] Yes.

Nick Downer [00:22:10] Over the years. Was there ever, you know, did you ever feel like there was maybe a specific time that was a tipping point or, you know, suddenly you came back to the neighborhood, you’re like, wow, it’s so different from what I remember?

Carol Malone [00:22:24] I think- I think as people, I think as our country began to shift during the Civil Rights movement, desegregation, more open housing as people, and you had the Fair Housing Act, and people were not allowed to blatantly discriminate, and people could move where they wanted to move to. And then this whole idea of integration, that’s when things began to change. When people would say, okay, I love the Central neighborhood, but I don’t have to. I’m not locked into living here now. I can move to Cleveland Heights. Like I said, my parents moved from there to Glenville, and many Blacks moved from Glenville to Cleveland Heights to Shaker Heights, to Warrensville Heights.

Nick Downer [00:23:17] So what do you think? You know, what do you think made them want to leave Central? Was it the housing stock wasn’t that good, and you could buy better houses in other parts of the city now that-?

Carol Malone [00:23:26] I would say that’s a combination of probably both. You know, you’ve got older housing stock and just, and just the whole idea of, it’s kind of hard for you as a young White male to wrap your mind around living in a society that literally federally mandates racism. It’s kind of hard to wrap your head around that. And so when you’ve lived under those kinds of constraints and your parents try to protect you from that, but when you’re living under those kinds of restraints, and now an opportunity presents itself, or you can live somewhere else, you’re gonna take that. You’re gonna take the opportunity. You’re gonna take that chance, you know, and it really was taking a chance, because when my parents moved from Empire to Albion in 1960, people used to ride up and down our street and yell n—– and shoot off guns, and I’ll happily- Klan burned a cross on my girlfriend’s father’s lawn, Mr. Holmes, ’cause he was working for the NAACP. Lady across the street poisoned my cat. I mean, you know, but you had to take those chances if you wanted to, you know, have a better life for your children, more exposure. And not to say that you couldn’t have a better life living in Central, but once again, I go back to it’s hard to wrap your head around living in a society that literally restricted your movement and where you could be.

Nick Downer [00:24:49] So it sounds like you’re saying from your point of view, the reason that many Blacks moved out of the Central neighborhood once they could was almost a demonstration of ability. When freedom is offered, you take that chance. And it wasn’t necessarily anything to do with the Central neighborhood?

Carol Malone [00:25:07] Right. Exactly. Exactly. I don’t think it had anything to do with the fact that we’re trying to run away from the Central neighborhood. Not that at all. I really don’t get that sense. And even from older people that I’ve talked to. Not at all. Cause like I said, the fondness for the community and the love for the neighborhood is still very much there.

Nick Downer [00:25:26] Do you remember when they started putting in the big projects down there?

Carol Malone [00:25:29] No, I don’t. Because I think Cedar. I want to say Cedar Estates, wasn’t that put up in the thirties?

Nick Downer [00:25:36] Yeah, I think so.

Carol Malone [00:25:37] I think it was in the thirties. Now, I’m sure if my parents were- But I’m sure that you’ll be- I’m sure I’ll be able to find people who’ll be able to give you that memory. Especially, I can think of somebody right off the top of my head right now as Judge Jean Murrell Capers. She’s getting ready to be 100 years old. She- Okay. Right. [laughs] Wait, we’ll do it off tape. Right, but you were saying. I digressed for a moment.

Nick Downer [00:26:02] I was just saying, had you been able to remember that maybe that was, you know, a tipping point where sort of things started to change? Because, you know, when you go down there now and you look between the subsidized housing, clearly that wasn’t, you know, that’s not the natural way it was clearly that had been cleared out.

Carol Malone [00:26:19] Right. Right.

Nick Downer [00:26:22] Do you- Can you remember before they were there?

Carol Malone [00:26:27] You know, I kind of can. I can because I can remember shopping with my father and going down to the East Side Market before. Before the stadium was built. Yeah, I do have that memory of going down where the market was before the stadium. I can remember. I can vaguely remember the houses because Tri-C wasn’t there. Tri-C has been built in my lifetime. Yeah, I do remember the houses.

Nick Downer [00:27:04] It would be great. I don’t know. We need to find some pictures of, you know, what the neighborhood was like before they went up because I did a little bit of research before I came just to see what I could find, and I didn’t see any pictures online, you know, any of the databases.

Carol Malone [00:27:18] You know what? I bet you we might have to either check here or go to the library or the archives over on Franklin and see if we can dig up and talking to neighbors. There are people that still live in the Central neighborhood who were there before Tri-C and are still there.

Nick Downer [00:27:33] Right. Do you- What do you think of Central now? Being a current resident what do you think of Central’s current condition?

Carol Malone [00:27:42] Well, let’s see. Because when I moved into my apartment over on South Moreland, the irony is I’m right around the corner now from the house I grew up in off Albion Road off of Buckeye. And I really wanted to stay in the community.

Nick Downer [00:27:58] In the Shaker community?

Carol Malone [00:27:59] No, I really actually wanted to stay in the Central- I wanted to stay in the Central neighborhood because I’m still very involved in the Central neighborhood. What do I think of it now? I still have a very deep fondness for the community. I kind of, you know, they’re building housing in the neighborhood. And I’ve often said, I’ve often described it this way, is that it’s a neighborhood, you know, surrounded by a lot of opulence. And unfortunately, you’ve got a lot of kids in that community who’ve not really ventured far beyond that community, you know, who don’t know about the- About where we’re sitting right here at Cleveland State or going to the museum or Playhouse Square, you know, with all of the vacant land. Okay, so. Cause, you know, you went to school to be a planner. So- So did I. So, you know, here comes the dream side of me, okay? Because I look at the neighborhood, and I look at all that land, and I’m saying to myself, okay, now you have a huge, impoverished population, what, 90-some percent of households are headed up by women in the Central neighborhood. Why can’t some jobs be brought to that neighborhood? You’ve got a lot of vacant land. You’ve got a lot of institutions and corporations. You know, you’ve got a huge corporation in the center of the neighborhood. Vossloh, which used to be Cleveland Train Tracking Company, which is a billion-dollar company. You know, I envision there could be a natural parkway. You know, like growing up in Shaker, you had the Shaker Nature Center. There isn’t a reason that you can’t have a Central Nature Center. I think it’s really about a perception of a community. Oh, these are people in the projects. They don’t know. They don’t care about that. Yeah, they do. And I’m an old-school, get on the ground kind of person. You know, you got to get on the ground and talk to people. You got to be able to go in their house and break bread with them. You know, you can’t worry about. Okay, so you saw a roach. So what? Sit down and have a conversation. You know what I’m saying? You got to avail yourself.

Nick Downer [00:30:11] You know, you were earlier in the interview, you were talking about how you felt like Black people’s response to segregation and racism outright was to, you know, to volunteer to get involved in groups and projects.

Carol Malone [00:30:26] Yeah. Because I was wondering how my grandmother did in Birmingham, Alabama.

Nick Downer [00:30:29] Exactly. What do you-

Carol Malone [00:30:30] My parents too.

Nick Downer [00:30:32] Do you still see the same amount of enthusiasm for that kind of thing in the black community today? And if not, what do you- You know, why not?

Carol Malone [00:30:39] Well, I think what’s happening now is that you have such a tough time with unemployment. In the Black community, we always had a saying, black people last hired, first fire. That’s still true. You know, where you have competition for many African Americans, and you have gone on, we’ve gone on to get our undergraduates, our masters, our PhDs. As a matter of fact, there’s a documentary done by Mario van Peebles. It was done two years ago. I can’t think of the name of it right now. Where he interviewed- He took young Black guys, White guys, White guy who had no diploma, criminal record. Black guy, college degree, no criminal record. Guess who got the job? White guy with no degree. I think right now, the thing that’s pressing Americans, period, across the board, are jobs. And so in a poor community, that makes it even more acute.

Nick Downer [00:31:38] Yeah, definitely. I was reading a study that was saying that, you know, the national average for unemployment, the unemployment rate is, you know, currently, you know, between nine and 12%. But in predominantly Black communities, especially inner city it’s easily 20 percent.

Carol Malone [00:31:56] Easy. Higher. You can take it higher than that. Yeah. For teen, for young people, unemployment? Oh, absolutely. It’s very, very, very high. So one of the things that, you know, I would like to see is that, you know, you’ve got jobs that go to, you know, the west side industrial parkways and what have you, or maybe far east side industrial parkways. You know, it. It would be nice to see what kinds of businesses can be attracted to the Central neighborhood because it is a gem. It’s in the central city. I mean, that’s what I loved about living in the neighborhood. I mean, I literally would walk downtown. I mean, from 43rd and Central, no, 43rd in Quincy to downtown Cleveland to Public Square is 3 miles. So I would walk down and walk back. I would get my exercise in, walk around, average, maybe 7 miles a day. I mean, you’re on public transport, get all the public transportation. You’re near the theater district, the museums, hospitals, schools. It’s a great location.

Nick Downer [00:33:00] That’s one of the things that I have to help with being part of the Central District Neighborhood Organization.

Carol Malone [00:33:07] Of course, you know, I’ll be roping you into my Cedar-Central Historical Society. [laughs]

Nick Downer [00:33:11] But, yeah, you know, that’s what I hope for. Right now there’s definitely this perception that, you know, almost south of Carnegie is in no-go area, unless you’re, you know, you’re there for a reason.

Carol Malone [00:33:22] Yeah.

Nick Downer [00:33:22] People don’t just go walk around down there.

Carol Malone [00:33:24] Right.

Nick Downer [00:33:24] You know, and if you could change that perception, I could see, you know, I know a lot of college students who would kill for, you know, medium or cheap rents. Yeah, close to- Close to Cleveland state. But, you know, there’s no, there’s no housing they see down there available for them, you know.

Carol Malone [00:33:40] Right.

Nick Downer [00:33:41] And plus there’s the stigma, you know, it’d be great to see some, you know, just that stigma disappears so the people, you know, so that there’s some more investment and everybody would win.

Carol Malone [00:33:51] I totally agree with you, too. And I talk to people who are much smarter than me, you know, and know a thing or two more than I do about building and architecture and development and what have you. I feel the same way, too. I don’t know what to tell you. Over the years, I’ve watched, like I said, a lot of buildings being torn down in that neighborhood. I don’t know if it’s because of an impending project called the Opportunity Corridor that’s been on the books for a long time to come through portions of that neighborhood. I don’t know. But even unfortunately, too, you have to also work to change the perceptions of the people who live in the community as well. Because if your neighborhood has been labeled a no-go zone, poor people, only poor people, baby mama, drug addicts, crime, violence, then you have that attitude. You have that perception, too. Well, you just ain’t nothing. This is just a hood, you know? And so sometimes you have to work to let the people, the residents of that community- No. You guys are sitting on the gem here, you know, because I can, I think back in the seventies, there was an idea for just a moment briefly, I don’t know how true this is, that they were going to take Cedar Estates and try to turn them into upscale condos. Because if I’m not mistaken, though, the Cedar Estates used to have originally wooden floors, and I think the wooden floors have been covered up. They were oak floors. Now, I shared with you Mr. John Sallee [Charles L. Sallee Jr.]. Mr. Sallee is deceased now, but he lived well into his nineties and he was a Harlem Renaissance painter. And one of his murals is in Cedar Estates building. I don’t know which one, but. So you’re gonna have to, the residents have to see that they have a gem too. And many of them do. Many of them do. And you can’t talk about the development of Cedar-Central neighborhoods housing unless you talk about Lonnie Burton.

Nick Downer [00:36:00] Can you tell us?

Carol Malone [00:36:02] I did not know Lonnie Burton personally. I just remember Lonnie Burton through the news politically that I can just remember this young brother talking about building suburban housing in the urban center. And I’m sure people thought he was crazy. And so a lot of times we talk about what’s going on in Central, but Lonnie Burton was, he was a major political force. He was an enigma to those here in Cleveland who maybe didn’t necessarily agree with his politics. I think he died when he was about 43, 44. But it would be hard-pressed to talk about what’s happening in the Central neighborhood and not talk about Lonnie Burton.

Nick Downer [00:36:50] What do you think- What was, well, I guess a better way to phrase that question would be, did you notice going on or were you ever personally involved in sort of the civil rights consciousness movement in Central? Was Central a hub for the Black Civil Rights movement?

Carol Malone [00:37:09] I would say portion a part of it probably was for sure, because I know my, over on Carnegie used to be the Carnegie Hotel. Carnegie Hotel, Lancers. And so the Lancers, the Lancer nightclub burned down probably four years ago. And that was owned by George Dixon. And Mr. George Dixon is on the RTA, I believe he’s president of RTA board. And so yes, many, many meetings took place at Olivet, Antioch, probably, like I said, the Carnegie Hotel, Lancers for sure. No question about it.

Nick Downer [00:37:57] I would be interested to go back to that bicycle shop, the Schwinn-

Carol Malone [00:38:01] Yeah, Mr. Roberts. The building is still there. It’s now a spot where guys repair cars, but the building is still there. And I, as I commented to you, I remembered it being, when I thought about it and just the things that I was interested in as an urban planning student. And it hit me one day, I said, well, God, Mr. Roberts kind of built the first little mini mall, if you really kind of think about it. It was a bicycle shop and a car wash together. That was kind of unheard of back in the late fifties to have a car wash and a bicycle shop. And I can remember stopping there on many a Saturday with my dad, you know, for him to talk to Mr. Roberts or get the car washed. And I’m just a little girl hanging out walking around the bicycle shop.

Nick Downer [00:38:49] Where is it located exactly?

Carol Malone [00:38:51] It is- Okay. You have 79th and Cedar. You have 79th. Then you’ll have some houses and then there’s a building. It’s a white building. If you’re going west, going downtown, it’ll be on the right hand side of the street, and it’s right next to the Y. And that used to be the Central Y. And it’s closed up now. It was a church, but that was the Y where a lot of African Americans went to, the Central Y.

Nick Downer [00:39:28] So it was on the corner? It was on the intersection? Or it was just on the-

Carol Malone [00:39:31] It was on the corner. It’s on the corner. Yeah, it was 79th. And then there’s some house, restaurants, houses. And then the white building is right there, but it’s still there.

Nick Downer [00:39:42] What does it look like?

Carol Malone [00:39:43] Well, not like it did when I was a kid at all. You know, it’s a place where guys fix cars. It’s really funny. It’s doubtful, because a couple times, living over this way, I wanted to actually, I did stop one day and tell one of the guys. Cause they- I don’t even think they know who built it or who used to own it.

Nick Downer [00:40:00] The guys who run it?

Carol Malone [00:40:02] Who run it now. Yeah, I don’t think they really have- No, it’s not even a car wash. It’s just a place where people, they repair cars. You know, just a shop where guys repair cars. But I don’t think they really know the significance of the building.

Nick Downer [00:40:19] You were telling me when we were at the bath house about- Did you say there was a convenience store that you knew that’s still there, Paul?

Carol Malone [00:40:28] Oh, that’s on Central. Yes. And he is still there. You were going, well, I can certainly tell you, I don’t remember him when I was a kid. But when I moved back into the neighborhood, one of the things that I did was I put together my own Easter bag giveaway. You know, I said to myself, okay, Carol, you know, you’ve gone through this transition. You’re here in the Central neighborhood. So what are you going to do? And I reached back to what is a part of my family history, and that’s being of service. So I went around, got to know the merchants. I raised $100, and he was one of the people who gave me some money. And I was able to do 25 bag giveaways for little boys and 25 for little girls. And I remember his store because one of my first jobs when I came out of college, I was the first African American female for American Home Products. American Home Products owned Chef Boy-ar-dee, Gulden’s mustard, Jiffy Pop popcorn, a whole bunch of food products. And he was one of my stores. And then when I moved in the neighborhood, I went back over and said, God, I used to come in the store as a sales rep. And he’s still there. And he’s- He’s been there 50 years or better. So he’s seen a lot.

Nick Downer [00:41:41] He’d be interesting to talk to.

Carol Malone [00:41:43] He really would. He’s such a charming gentleman.

Nick Downer [00:41:46] So, you know, you’ve got, what? Paul’s. Paul’s store.

Carol Malone [00:41:50] Paul’s store.

Nick Downer [00:41:52] Are there any other businesses have that kind of long life that you can remember?

Carol Malone [00:41:57] I’m trying to think. Well, I know him. I know- Okay, let’s go all the way down to 71st and 70- Excuse me, 79th and Central. There’s a woman who owns a store called the Good and Plenty Soul Food restaurant. And her name is- Well, everyone calls her Miss G. I met her this past summer. Her store is open Tuesdays through Sundays. When you step in it, it’s like stepping back into another era. It really is. Her food is delicious. Then there’s Alex and Rose. They own a convenience store on Central. And then there is Mr. Johnson, who owns the Artistic Barber Shop. You might want to speak with Mr. Tim Tramble. Mr. Tim Tramble is the director of the Burton Bell Carr Development Corporation. And it’s named after three people. It’s named after- I forgot the significance of Mr. Bell and Mr. Lonnie Burton and the other person, Carr. And Mr. Tramble is executive director. And they rehabbed apartment townhouses over there last year. So it might be nice for you to see what that building was and see what it looks like now that they’ve rehabbed it. That gives me hope that they rehabbed it so maybe they won’t tear down the building that my parents’ restaurant was in. You’ve got- I can’t think of her name now, but she has been on Central neighborhood a long time. Mister- Oh, it’ll come to me because I’m. Yeah. Cause we got plenty of time. But this is- This is a gentleman who. Oh my God, can. I believe I can’t remember Brian’s last name. Anyway, his father has an incredible history. He has a warehouse over down on Central. But his father’s history is just incredible. And remember I gave you the name Ms. Sadie Jackson. I can put you into- Miss Jackson has lived at Carver Park. I used to work at Friendly Inn settlement house in 1983. And Ms. Jackson was involved in the community then. And she still is. Charming lady. She had a lot of history.

Nick Downer [00:44:23] So, you know, you pulled up probably what, like seven businesses, give or take, you know. How do you remember, you know, the main east west streets being just full of businesses?

Carol Malone [00:44:34] Yes. From 105 on down. From 105th going towards downtown. On both sides of the street, businesses. Central, the same way, you know, from Central stops at 83rd. From 83rd on down, businesses on either side of the street.

Nick Downer [00:44:53] So for you, where’s the Central boundary? The eastern [inaudible].

Carol Malone [00:44:58] For me, from what my memory was, going from 105th to 22nd.

Nick Downer [00:45:04] Just sort of south of Euclid, that whole-

Carol Malone [00:45:06] Yeah, from 105th on down. From 105th on down. That’s what I remember. Cause my uncle’s cleaners was on- My uncle’s cleaners was on Cedar. And then you had- Oh, my God, I can’t think of it now. It’ll come to me. Cause I went to school with their grandfather, who owned a restaurant on Cedar that was extremely popular. It’ll come to me. We’ll meet again. [laughs] Yeah. Cause his grandchildren. Art’s Seafood!

Nick Downer [00:45:35] Art’s Seafood?

Carol Malone [00:45:36] Art’s Seafood was huge. Huge. I went to school with his grandchildren, Andy, Andrea and Al Bro, who would probably be able to give you just tons of information. But art seafood was a major, major spot.

Nick Downer [00:45:51] Let’s go back to your parents’ bar. Right? They opened the bar?

Carol Malone [00:45:54] Yeah, it was. Right- 71st. It was- Well, I know it was in the sixties, so I wanted. We moved in our house in Shaker in 1960. So it was somewhere between 1960, 1961, ’62, ’63. And it was called Effie’s Cafe. I can’t believe I remember.

Nick Downer [00:46:13] How old were you at the time? High school.

Carol Malone [00:46:16] I was at Ludlow Elementary School. Yeah, I was in elementary school. Yeah. Cause the picture that I found today, I was looking for a date on the picture - ’cause they used to put a date on the picture ’cause there’s no date - on the picture of my dad standing in the restaurant.

Nick Downer [00:46:31] Did you parents work together on that? They both went in, because you said your mom was interested in education.

Carol Malone [00:46:36] Yeah. At the time when we first moved on Empire, my mother was making a transition from cosmetology to going back to school to be an educator. My father was still with the Ohio Bureau of Employment Services because when he retired, he’d been there for 43 years. You know, people don’t stay on jobs that long anymore. You know. He’d been on his job for 43 years.

Nick Downer [00:47:04] And so it was him or him and your mom who-

Carol Malone [00:47:07] Worked in a restaurant? Yeah. They both worked in a restaurant together. Yeah, it was a soul food southern cuisine.

Nick Downer [00:47:15] Do you remember that? I mean, is that-

Carol Malone [00:47:16] Yeah, I do. I can remember my mother always telling me, Pookie, stop eating up the profits. Because I would want a bag of potato chips, or I’d want a candy bar. She would always say - my nickname is Pookie - Pookie, stop eating the profits up. And they had a bowling, bowling alley machine where you had the little, you know, the little machine where you could bowl in it. And my mother was known for cooking her soul food, her collard greens or hot water cornbread, her barbecue pig feet with beer batter barbecue sauce and butter beans and just ribs and pork chops and just the whole real southern cuisine.

Nick Downer [00:48:00] And then why did it close?

Carol Malone [00:48:03] Well, I think my mother and father, if I’m not mistaken, they got robbed. And so someone working for my father had to shoot the person. So my mother and father were in their forties, and I think that they decided after a couple of years that perhaps they wanted just to close the store, close the business.

Nick Downer [00:48:28] Did they sell it to someone else?

Carol Malone [00:48:30] I don’t know. That’s a very good question. I don’t know what happened. I sure don’t.

Nick Downer [00:48:35] That’s interesting. What were the perceptions of the neighborhood that it was in? You said it was on-

Carol Malone [00:48:40] 71st and Central. [crosstalk] Building is still there, yeah.

Nick Downer [00:48:44] What was the perception of the neighborhood at the time they were running it? You know, safe neighborhood, sort of transitioning, dangerous?

Carol Malone [00:48:51] Well, you know, I don’t think the- I don’t think there- You know, again, it goes back to. I hate to keep referencing race and segregation, because it was just- It just defined your existence. I mean, it’s very hard for people to understand. And I’m 57, so I lived a part of that, that whole racial piece defined. So it wasn’t, you know, Black people didn’t have the liberty say, oh, well, you know, we’re not going to that part of town, darling, because it’s, you know, it’s not where our kind of people go. No. [laughs] That was the neighborhood that you went to because that’s the only neighborhood you could move in comfortably without being harassed or being stopped, you know, for just being Black.

Nick Downer [00:49:38] That’s true. You know, I think, you know, I don’t think you need to be apologetic for bringing up race and segregation, because I feel like it’s such a massive part-

Carol Malone [00:49:45] It’s major.

Nick Downer [00:49:46] Massive part of the history. I mean, you know, anywhere that you had a large number of Blacks move in after the Great Migration, you know, it was a huge-

Carol Malone [00:49:57] Or even before that, because, see, you know, when we were kids, we would drive- Anybody who would drive back, like, as folks would say, we’re going back home for Christmas or we’re going down for Easter. We always left at night. We never drove during the day. We would leave Cleveland at night about midnight. Those are my memories of make sure we cooked all our food. [laughs] I mean, yes, we did have fried chicken in a shoebox lined with wax paper. You know, you had your cooler in the trunk with your pop. You had your deviled eggs, you had your egg sandwiches or whatever. You had all your food. Why? You couldn’t stop. Once you got past Cincinnati, you crossed the Mason-Dixon Line and you went into southern Ohio and crossed the Mason-Dixon Line to Cincinnati and Kentucky. You couldn’t stop. You could not stop to go to the bathroom. You could not stop to get anything to eat. And I jokingly say, I’ve gone to the bathroom in some of the finest highways in the South because you had to bring your toilet paper with you. Those were our realities. And we left- We left Cleveland at midnight because we knew we could get to Birmingham, drive all night long, get through. And my daddy always hated driving because when you got to Kentucky, because of driving around the mountains and the hills and stuff, because you knew that you were going to be in Birmingham by 1:00 that afternoon, because that way you could drive all night long without anybody messing with you. So that, I definitely remember.

Nick Downer [00:51:24] It’s almost, I wouldn’t say impossible to relate to, but it’s such a, you know, it’s such a different reality, it’s amazing.

Carol Malone [00:51:29] Yeah. You know, it’s just, just to add to you, I was listening to Tom Joyner Morning show. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Tom Joyner, which is something in terms of your study that you might want to. Tom Joyner is a Black radio disc jockey. He’s had a television or a radio show on. And you go to- Just put in, go to Google, put in Tom Joyner. Read about him. His radio show comes on every morning at 6:00 a.m. To 10:00, 10:00 a.m. He’s probably listened to by millions of people, you know, all over the country, and he’s getting it with all the high tech stuff. He’s got an app. You could probably listen to him outside the country now. And he always does a Black history fact every day. And he had a gentleman on today who’s written a book called My White Privilege and My Black Family. Very interesting because he’s talking about, he touches on what we’re talking about now, how it was a White man married a Black woman, and one of his Black friends said to him one day, you know, well, what are you going to do now? What do you think about all this privilege that you have? And he got to thinking about it and started writing about it, and he realized how much stress African Americans live under. And he said it really brought it home to him when he was in North Carolina with his family, and they saw a flashing sign. [laughs] So he said, when he got closer to the side, and his client sign said, this is klan country. Fight communism and segregation and Earl Warren, who was the, I believe, our attorney general at the time, and then it said, Welcome to. That was the welcoming sign. And he said, at that moment, he really realized how very stressful it was for people of color to be in certain places. And I also draw your attention to probably at Case Western Reserve Library, Freiburger Library. I don’t even know if that’s called that now because I used to go and sit in the old Freiberger Library because they had such a great collection. But you want to. And see if they have any here at Cleveland State’s library. But the black codes. Are you familiar with the black code books?

Nick Downer [00:53:38] No.

Carol Malone [00:53:38] Okay. People always. People don’t realize that they literally published a book of codes that Black people had to follow.

Nick Downer [00:53:49] Oh, like laws?

Carol Malone [00:53:50] There you go. Yeah. Yeah. So those little Sunday sayings about Black people, be out of town by sundown. That was written in a book. And you can actually go to Freiberger Library. I’m still calling it Freiberger. It might be called something else now I’m really dating myself.

Nick Downer [00:54:06] Kelvin Smith maybe?

Carol Malone [00:54:08] It might be because I remember the foundation library on 14th used to be called the Kent Smith Library. So you can find the Black code books there. And they had them for each state.

Nick Downer [00:54:24] How did, you know, when you were little, then it must have definitely had a huge impact on where you went and what you did day to day, right?

Carol Malone [00:54:35] Absolutely. Which brings me to something I brought with me. Although we’re taping, you can’t see it, but my mother was a part of an organization called Tots and Teens, and Tots and Teens was a social organization founded by a woman named Ms. Jacoway. And this is the very first newspaper that they published. It was a national Tots and Teens. And this is my mother’s friend, Ms. Ann Cunningham, and Ms. Emmy Lewis, who started the chapter here in Cleveland. And the lady who founded it, her name was Geraldine Jacoway. She was a national president. And this is their very first newspaper from 1966. And this cotillion right here was a cotillion held in downtown Cleveland. My mother worked on that, and I was a page in this cotillion. I was six years old. And on the back here to really illustrate, at the Fairfax Recreation Center. Fairfax is over here in the Cedar-Central neighborhood. And so when we had our Tots and Teens meetings, we would meet at Fairfax. I spent a lot of Saturdays at Fairfax. You know, it’s so funny, looking for stuff, and here is a picture of myself with a group of kids at Fairfax, and that’s me. And what really tickles me is that I have a handbag, [laughs] and I collect handbags, and it’s so funny to see myself as a little girl with a handbag, you know? And many of the people in this picture I know and are still around and active in the community, which is so interesting. So, yes, the Fairfax Recreation Center has a tremendous history. I mean, we did a lot there. A whole lot there.

Nick Downer [00:56:33] So what neighborhoods- I would imagine that you mostly stayed sort of in selected east side neighborhoods then, right? Do you have any memories of the west side?

Carol Malone [00:56:43] No. Going to- When I was a kid growing up, you didn’t really have a lot of people of color living on the west side. It wasn’t necessarily a hospitable place I can remember as a child. That’s just the part of town that we just didn’t go in. And unfortunately, Murray Hill still retains that dubious honor, even though I’m sure it’s something that they would love to shake as a handle. But it still was not, even on the east side Murray Hill was just a part of the city that, you know, you just as a person of color, you just did not walk through at all. And you had to be careful. You had to be careful riding through Cleveland Heights, back in the day.

Nick Downer [00:57:27] What about neighborhoods in Cleveland north of Euclid?

Carol Malone [00:57:33] Like the Collinwood area?

Nick Downer [00:57:35] Like Collinwood, but also, you know, above Central to the north. You know, so, you know, what is now Asiatown, Saint Clair-Superior.

Carol Malone [00:57:46] Oh, okay.

Nick Downer [00:57:47] So, like, west of Glenville?

Carol Malone [00:57:49] Well, you know, it’s really funny. My memories of that neighborhood are eastern European, very eastern European. I don’t. I don’t ever really perceive hearing a lot of- Not to say that there probably weren’t racial clashes, but that part of the. That part of the city, I never really- Because my aunt lived on 93rd off Superior. No, 98th. As a matter of fact, they just sold my aunt’s house. I couldn’t believe it. My aunt lived in that house. Oh, my gosh. From the forties. They just sold the house last summer. My aunt had stayed in it all that time. So I don’t really remember, but I do remember the riots. I do remember the sixties riots. I remember that very much so, because when my aunt lived on 98th, I remember being in her house one time, and we were on the front porch, and there was a store on the corner that was on fire. My father was working for the [inaudible] with the Ohio Employment Services for 43 years. And I can remember he was running the labor. There was an office that sat on Addison and Superior. When I was a little girl, it used to be, to show you what the Glenville neighborhood was like, that used to be a boat store. And I can remember as a child riding by and seeing all these big boats in the window. And then by the time my father was running there, it turned into a job office. And that was after the Civil Rights movement. And so there was a push for job training and job programs and things like that. So my father was a manager of that office. And I can remember him having to get up a couple times in the middle of the night because they had firebombed it during the riots.

Nick Downer [00:59:41] What do you remember your reactions being at the time to the riots? Because that’s obviously a huge, pivotal moment in Cleveland history.

Carol Malone [00:59:46] I’m trying to tell you. Um, well, I was kind of a- [laughs] I was- I- Suffice it to say, I was pretty outspoken. I definitely was an outspoken kid at Woodbury and Shaker. You know, I guess some people may have wanted to say that I was militant. Okay, I’ll own that bad badge proudly. I did speak up about things. I was definitely aware. I can remember my girlfriends, and she’s Denise. She’s Dr. Denise right now, and her sister Charlene. And we went to the principal at the time, who was Dr. Lawson, and to ask to have some space in the hallway at Shaker to recognize Black History Month, because Shaker wasn’t recognizing it at that time. And so he let us have a display case for four weeks so we could put in information, stuff like that. And it was very interesting because the kids at the time, at Shaker, we really actually got along. I think it was much more of the staff having to make that adjustment because you had the Civil Rights movement going on, which was spilling into the Black Power movement, and then you had the Vietnam War. It was a lot going on. It was.

Nick Downer [01:01:26] I don’t have much more time. They said to keep us about 50 minutes, right?

Carol Malone [01:01:29] Yeah.

Nick Downer [01:01:29] Yeah, and this has been exactly an hour.

Carol Malone [01:01:31] Okay. Alrighty.

Nick Downer [01:01:32] But, I mean, there’s so much more to talk about.

Carol Malone [01:01:34] I’m trying to tell you. Well, you know, we’re gonna have an ongoing- [crosstalk] We’ll have an ongoing, ongoing thing. But I’ve enjoyed this immensely. This has been something I’ve wanted to do for a long time.

Nick Downer [01:01:48] Well, thank you. And I don’t know if there’s anything we’re supposed to say specifically to end it, but I guess we’ll end it on that.

Carol Malone [01:01:56] Yeah, all right.

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