In this 2006 interview, James Levin, a founder of Cleveland Public Theater, talks about his early life in Cleveland, especially his love of the Arts-- even while attending law school in Cleveland. In 1979, upon graduating from law school, he moved to New York to become an actor. His experiences in New York, including acting at Cafe La MaMa, inspired him to return to Cleveland in the early 1980s to create a theater for the Cleveland public. While working as a lawyer during the day, he and others formed "Theater 55" on the east side of Cleveland; later they put on free Shakespeare performances at the Cleveland Zoo; and finally in 1984 they found a permanent venue for the theater now known as Cleveland Public Theater in an old dance hall at 6415 Detroit--across the street from the Gordon Arcade. Levin primarily addresses the development of Cleveland Public Theater from the early 1980s to 2006, but he also talks about Ingenuity Festival and other arts projects.


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Levin, James (interviewee)


Souther, Mark (interviewer)


Detroit Shoreway



Document Type

Oral History


54 minutes


Mark Souther [00:00:00] This is an interview with James Levin. My name is Mark Souther [at Cleveland] State University and the date is [audio garbled] 2006, and I'm here talking with Mr. Levin today about his background in theater and his involvement with Cleveland Public Theatre and the Gordon Square Cultural Arts District and Ingenuity, most recently. If you would, please tell me where and when you were born.

James Levin [00:00:30] I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, in October of 1953.

Mark Souther [00:00:36] Where did you attend school?

James Levin [00:00:38] Family grew up... My family lived when I was born in Shaker Heights, and I went to the Shaker Heights public school system, graduated Shaker Heights High School in 1971 and then I bounced around a few colleges and graduated from University of Michigan in 1975. Then I went to... took some time off. Then I attended Case Law School and graduated from there in 1979.

Mark Souther [00:01:05] What got you interested in theater initially?

James Levin [00:01:12] Well there's kind of... Life is complicated and there was probably like a double track. One was, I think, from a social activist perspective, I remember being a little boy and my father took me to the Cleveland Play House and we saw a matinee of Ten Angry Men. Remember the Henry Fonda movie? The Play House did a very good theatrical version of that. It must have been 1963, '64. And I kind of had this idea of theater having significant impact. I was very affected by that play. And then I saw... My family took me to Broadway plays frequently when I was little. Like once a year, it was sort of a big deal we'd go to New York and visit Aunt Florence and Uncle Sid and we'd stay in their apartment in the East Side of New York and then we'd see a play. And I remember seeing Oliver and I remember seeing some other musicals and feeling very deeply affected by it. As I was growing up in Shaker Heights in the late 1960s and early '70s, I, like many 16, 17, and 18-year-old kids in that era, we became kind of very activist oriented with respect to civil rights and the Vietnam War. And I think I began to see theater as a means of expression of outrage and also as a possibility of... as a tool of social change. And that was really my interest in theater early on. It really wasn't from the theatrical point of view; it was more from an activist point of view. But then I have to admit when I was in... And I did just a little bit of theater when I was in college. Very little. However, when I was in law school, I was a terrible law student and I didn't like... Those books were just way too heavy to take home, and I decided that I needed to expand my social life a little bit. So I decided that the theater was a good instrument to do that. So I auditioned for a couple of plays and I did quite a bit of community theater in 1976, '77, '78 around cleveland. I was in a play at something called the Ohio City Players, and there was something at Dobama at their new plays festival, Ursuline College, and a couple other smaller productions here and there. But I was really bitten by the bug and then I took the bar exam in 1979 in July, and the day after I took the bar exam I hitchhiked in New York City to be an actor. So that's how... It was sort of like a double and a deeper kind of longer level. I saw theater as a way of like social change and changing the world. But as a practical everyday world, it was out of the boredom and tedium and distaste for law school and wanted to meet other people besides law students. [laughs].

Mark Souther [00:04:24] You mentioned social activism. Did you get directly involved or was it an interest that ended up finding an outlet, for the time being, in theater?

James Levin [00:04:36] I was definitely in my own small way, as one can't be in a very large way when you're a high school student or even in college, but I was sort of a social activist participating in demonstrations, helping to organize them before I got very involved in theater. When I was in New York, through really amazing strokes of luck I ended up in a resident company at a place called Cafe La MaMa, which is a very storied, acclaimed, off Off Broadway theater. Many well-known people had performed there, and I felt terribly honored to be in this company. And I was... La MaMa, which became a model for Cleveland Public Theatre for sure, had several stages. So if I was performing or rehearsing at La MaMa, sometimes I would peek in at a rehearsal or performance or something else going on, and I was very impressed by plays that were really about social justice and plays that challenged the status quo and plays that were being presented by groups from from the Philippines, and groups from Africa, groups from Argentina. It was just an amazing hotbed of ideas and activism and dialogue. And I think really at that point I began to really understand at a deeper level how theater could really function as a cauldron of social dialogue, if not social change, least a place that could call important questions about the status quo. So I think that kind of sensibility of mine matured and achieved a certain focus while I was at Cafe La MaMa from 1979 to about 1982.

Mark Souther [00:06:27] How unusual was Cafe La MaMa in the sense of being a forum for such ideas, social activist ideas, both in New York and nationally?

James Levin [00:06:40] Well, you know, theaters internationally have always been a place that challenged and explored new ideas. But La MaMa has sort of a history and gravitas of people who have performed there and plays that have evolved there. It's led by a woman named Ellen Stewart, who is still with us, who's just an incredible woman, who is their founding director and their executive director. And she has just created a multi-venue safe place for new works, to not just be presented but to be hatched, to be nurtured, to be in a long rehearsal process. She has created rehearsal spaces for this. I mean, little, little wombs of activity in the Lower East Side of New York that are just hatching this kind of work. And of course, some of it sucks, some of it, you know, is embarrassingly bad, but some of it is incredible. And just the fact that there was a place that can draw artists from all these different cultures and different strata coming together, converging, sharing ideas. I met some amazing people over the loft area where visiting artists stay at La MaMa. I mean, I would hang out there sometimes because some my friends who were in the company I was in were living there and I'd come in and I'd be making pancakes or French toast or something like that or pasta. And it's just amazing people from different cultures. We would have the most amazing, memorable conversations. And it was like going an international journey just standing at the stove making French toast. So that had a great impact on my career. So I'd say it was very unique, to answer your question.

Mark Souther [00:08:30] At what point did that find its way into the seed of an idea for creating your own such theater?

James Levin [00:08:36] Completely. There reached a time in my journey in New York after about three years of being in a resident theater at La MaMa called Cafe... no, sorry, called El Theatro DaDa named after its founder, Dario D'Ambrosi, who's a terrific actor from Rome. I had worked in his company for about two and a half years and for a variety of reasons, some of them family related, some personal, I decided to come back to Cleveland with a very specific idea of trying to launch a theater in the image of La MaMa. And Ellen has been to Cleveland Public Theatre two or three times and she says, This is one of my babies—Cleveland Public Theatre—and she's absolutely right. Cleveland Public Theatre was definitely inspired by Cafe La MaMa.

Mark Souther [00:09:33] So this is late 1970s or early 1980s that we're speaking of when you really got the idea that you...

James Levin [00:09:39] It was the early '80s.

Mark Souther [00:09:41] Early '80s.

James Levin [00:09:41] I came back to Cleveland and started a theater with a loose confederation of people. Kathy Wassel, Lenore Klein, Bill Beck, Jan Brummel, Chuck Kartali, who's a now well-known actor here. Now, we started a theater called Theater 55 because we were going to be at 55th and Euclid where the old WHK building is now, which is now where the Agoura Theater is located. And we had a handshake agreement and things sort of collapsed. So even though we weren't on 55th Street, we were officially called Theater 55 in our corporate papers for a while. Our first production was at the Cleveland Zoo. We launched our production part of our operations with a series of free Shakespeare at the Zoo production starting in 1983. And all this time I had been continuing to look for a venue and I looked... I wanted to be within the city of Cleveland. I wanted to be in a urban area that I felt was on the verge of or at least had the potential of renewal. And I was looking in the Collinwood area. I was looking at the old Commodore Theater. I was looking at the old Olympia Theater at 55th and Broadway. And then I found this space. Somebody told me that the Capitol movie theater was available over on 65th Street just, well, just north of here. And I looked in the Capitol movie theater. Remember, this is now 1980... late 1983, early 1984, and I looked at the Capitol and there was a very small stage with a raked audience area, meaning that there was a slanted floor downward, and part of my idea of the theater space that I wanted had a flat floor because I wanted a space that would be extremely flexible so we could have theater in the round or theater at one end or a theater thrust that would be completely up to the designer and director to configure for each production, similar to a space at La MaMa called The Annex. And I looked at the Capitol movie theater, and I thought, well, this space is cool, it's beautiful, it's falling apart. But the thing about it for me is that you have a raked floor. You can't move the seats around if the floor is raked, you understand, and you have a very small stage because it was built to be a movie theater. And so I said, well, unless we do some massive renovation here, this is not usable for me, but I thought, well, this is kind of a cool area. I'd never been to 65th and Detroit—ever. And I was walking around with a young woman who was involved in our efforts named Sandy Kish. And I remember very distinctly walking a little bit down west on Detroit, and we turned around, crossed the street, and walked east on Detroit across 65th, and there was a man on a folding chair with a large belly and a long white beard and kind of longish hair. He was sitting on this folding chair. And he said to me, I said, hello. He said, you must be looking for the space. And I said, Yes, I am. And he said, Well, it's right upstairs. I want to have a look. And I said, sure. So I went upstairs and this was the 6415 Detroit Avenue space, the second floor of that building, and there were some partitions. It was used... Store partitions like doors and kind of artificial walls. And there was no heat, no electricity, no water or anything like that. But the space was like... was amazing. It had high ceilings. You gotta remember after being in New York for a number of years, every space you worked in had pillars. And to find a pillar-free space was... was nirvana. And this space was an old dance hall that was built in 1919 called the O'Laughlin's Dance Hall back then, and it was incredible. And I said I'll take it. And he said, Really? You don't have to ask your board or anything like that? And I said, Well, I think I have some influence over my board. I think we can probably handle that. He said, Are you with the Boy Scouts, right? And I said, The Boy Scouts? I said, No. He said I thought somebody from the Boy Scouts wanted to look at the space. I said, no, I'm not from the Boy Scouts, I'm with the Cleveland Public Theatre. So anyway, we signed like within a couple of weeks a 10-year lease at very small rent. It's like a hundred fifty dollars a month. Now, you gotta remember that the space had no anything. So we had to renovate it with sweat equity. We had no money either. But we got the church to donate to us a heating system. I was practicing law at the time. I'm a lawyer, so I got clients of mine to come in and help with the plumbing and help with the carpentry and help with the plaster and the ceiling. And so the theater became slowly renovated, really built by mostly criminals. I think was sort of unique in American history in that it was a theater built pretty much by criminal labor. Anyway. So we signed a very cheap lease with very small increments every month. I mean, after every twelve months, it would increase by like ten dollars or fifty dollars. So it was like a hundred fifty dollars a month for twelve months. Then it would go up to two hundred a month for twelve months. And at the end of the five years it was maybe four hundred dollars. Still, four hundred dollars for [something] like that space is ridiculous. And then Halbert who was the landlord, Elmer John Halbert, said, Sure you don't want to buy the building? Why don't you just buy it? I'll sell it to you for like twenty-five, thirty thousand. I said, No. I mean, because we didn't have any money. We exercised the five-year option to renew. See, being a lawyer, I thought I was pretty smart by having these small annual increases, then a five-year option to renew. I thought I was like a very smart guy and I was getting [one] over on John Halbert. Well, at the end of the ten years, he says, Well, I think I'm selling the building. I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, I'm, you know, I'm tired of owning this property. I'm gonna sell it. And I said, Well, can I still buy it for like thirty thousand dollars? He said, Are you kidding? After all the work that you've done to make this building renovated, it's got heat, it's got electricity, it's got water, you got permits. I can sell its building to make a lot of money now. So I was so smart by building this lease in for ten years where we were paying nothing, but I was extremely stupid for not buying the damn thing when I could for thirty thousand dollars. He made me basically pay for the building twice, once for all work we did renovating it and once at the end where we paid, ended up paying a hundred and sixty thousand dollars for it, which doesn't seem like a lot of money in 2006. Back in 1994 though, it seemed like a lot of money. We raised sixty thousand dollars and the City of Cleveland gave us a hundred thousand-dollar loan to buy. That's probably more than you needed to know, but that's how I ended up in that space.

Mark Souther [00:17:23] So this is across the street then, in this space over here, or am I confusing that?

James Levin [00:17:30] Yeah. It's diagonally across the street at 6415.

Mark Souther [00:17:34] And what about the theater that's in this building. Was there ever any interest? Do you ever have an interest in that theater.

James Levin [00:17:41] The Capitol movie theater?

Mark Souther [00:17:42] Well, the one, yeah, that's actually in... That's the Capitol, right? Yeah.

James Levin [00:17:46] Yeah. Well that was the building that I first saw that first drew me here that I rejected because I couldn't use it as a performance space.

Mark Souther [00:17:53] I see, I just... Yeah.

James Levin [00:17:55] Yeah.

Mark Souther [00:17:55] Mm hmm. Okay. At what point then... How did the theater evolve in terms of finding talent initially? Where did the talent come from? How did you sort of build that network when you first came to Cleveland?

James Levin [00:18:12] When I first came to Cleveland, I had an open audition for the theater. The Plain Dealer had a little tiny article that about me coming back from New York. Of course nobody had ever heard of me. I don't know, you know, why they wrote about it, but I was starting a new company and I was holding auditions at Cleveland State at a space called Theater Bridge, which was kind of an unofficial theater at Cleveland State at the time. They let me use this space and I got some very... Some very strong people showed up at that audition, including the people that I had mentioned. Lenore Klein, Kathy Wassel, Bill Beck, Chuck Kartali, etc.. We decided that to get on the map so that nobody would ever... First of all, we didn't have our own space at the time. So here we are. How do we get on the map? Nobody knows we exist. We don't have our own space. What can we do to kind of get on the radar? And we were inspired by another New York event, which was Shakespeare in the Park. Joe Papp did Shakespeare in the Park for, I don't know, 25, 30 years in Central Park. Kathy Wassel I think had this idea and told me about the... what was then the Sohio Amphitheater at the Cleveland Zoo. I went out there and looked at it and I was blown away. You have 450 seats. You have a lawn behind the 450 seats that's reminiscent of Blossom. And you have no programming. You have like a jazz show every third Wednesday and you have kind of a kid's event where, you know, the elephants get up on stage and hiccup or something, and, you know, a little magic show every second Sunday. And I'm thinking, why is there nothing in this amphitheater? It's crazy. So we developed the idea of free Shakespeare at the Zoo as opposed to in the Park. And this is where we had some amazing luck. I had done quite a bit of theater in New York, but I didn't feel like I was equipped to direct Shakespeare. Kathy or Tina Sell who teaches now at Cleveland State, I think. She's at Cleveland State?

Mark Souther [00:20:40] Yeah.

James Levin [00:20:40] Yeah. She was one of the original members of this organization, you should ask her about it. [She] said, you know, there's a guy named Robert Tolaro who just won an Emmy for his work on Moliere. And he's from Cleveland. He's really kind of not doing anything during the summer. His parents live in Parma. Why don't we ask him if he'd be interested in directing? I said, wow, that's an amazing idea. And sure enough, I met with Robert Tolaro and he said, Oh yeah, this is great. Perfect idea. Love to help launch this thing. I don't really need much money because I got this day job. I can't remember, it was a theater-related job that he does during the September through June. And he came on board. We ran into another guy named Robert Stegmiller, who had his own production company, meaning sound and lights. Stegmiller died a couple of years ago. But he got involved, and again, he had state-of-the-art equipment. I mean, his stuff was used when the Rock Hall had their big concert on, like eleven years ago? They used Stegmiller. I mean, this guy can do stadiums, and here he is basically donating equipment and crew because he loved this idea. So then we said, okay, what do you want to do? So we decided we would start off with Midsummer Night's Dream. Midsummer Night's Dream is like sort of everybody's favorite Shakespeare play. But to do it outdoors in this amphitheater by the zoo with the animals bellowing and mooing, whatever they do, in the back, baying, in the background was unbelievable. And the setting of the zoo with kind of the trees and the woods around the amphitheater with kind of the grassy area behind it was just the most idyllic thing you can imagine. We had no trouble getting leads. We had five or six people audition for this play, like Jan Brummel, Bill Beck as Bottom. Jan Brummel played Titania, who was a leading actress, wonderful actor. We had a guy named Larry Seaman as the male lead. We had a young woman do Puck, whose name I can't remember, but these were like terrific actors, all because, you know, the opportunity to do outdoor Shakespeare in front of like a thousand people for a new company? Why not? So it was partly luck, partly because we gave the actors such an incredible opportunity that they were just not going to have anywhere else. And that first year, like so many things, when you really don't know all the problems you're going to deal with. We convinced the Zoo to let us use the amphitheater for free. You had to pay a little bit for security. We had to like... Anyway, we brought in the production equipment and we just had like a magical summer. The mistake I made is that we only had a three day run, a four day run. It was crazy to do all that work for three or four performances, but they were, you know, it was a magical time. The weather was perfect, perfect every day. The production was great. I'm not going to tell you that every single role of every single person was professional quality because it wasn't. But the leads were great. They carried the show Tolaro was an incredible director to work with, pulled it off. And it was the kickoff of Cleveland Public Theatre. We followed up in 1984 with a '50s rock and roll version of Twelfth Night, where we had my clients going up and down through the crowd on motorcycles, because they were all bikers, and we had a live rock and roll band doing Twelfth Night kind of a la Happy Days, 1950s style. We did a succession of free Shakespeare performances through 1988, I believe. And they were... It was great. They weren't all great. You know, some of them were not so good. But all in all... The problem was people had heard of Shakespeare at the Zoo. It was kind of like a brand that people had heard of. They didn't realize it was Cleveland Public Theatre that was presenting it. [laughs] They go, Oh, I've heard of Shakespeare at the Zoo. Cleveland Public Theatre. Was that you guys doing that? Yes. So that was before we understood marketing and branding.

Mark Souther [00:25:07] How did you get involved then in sort of branding this neighborhood? Speaking of branding as, you heard of the cooperative that was called The Arcadia Project at one point, and perhaps, I'm not sure, maybe tell me the connection between that and the Gordon Square Arts District, but it seems that one morphed into the other.

James Levin [00:25:29] Yeah. No, it did completely. Part of the reason I loved... that I wanted to move into 6415 Detroit was because of the space next door. The Gordon Square Theater, as you might know, is the oldest standing theater in Cleveland, built in 1912. Just an amazing space, was very decrepit and condemned back in the '80s and early '90s. And I didn't make the same mistake that I made with 6415, which is renovating it and then buying it. So I was able to obtain the Gordon Square Theater. So suddenly we had not just one building, but a kind of a complex of two spaces. We had so much programming at the time with our youth programing, our working with the Y-Haven guys in recovery with four or five plays in rehearsal and then another three or four in production. We actually came into a situation where even though we had two venues, I felt that we didn't have enough space. So I wanted to obtain the church property just to the east to Cleveland Public Theatre, the old St. Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church. So I'd been in long discussions with what was the warden of that church to secure that. So the idea at that time was to have those two buildings, the church and the parish hall, one as an acoustic music venue, the other as a cabaret theater and as an education venue for our outreach work, the parking lot that separates us, which would also house outdoor theater, and then the upstairs theater and the Gordon Square Theater. We're talking about four interior spaces, then an outdoor one. So I began to think of that, that Cleveland Public Theatre project as Arcadia. Kind of a, you know, environment of great creativity and wonder. Meanwhile, in trying to secure funds for the renovation of Cleveland Public Theatre, I had secured money in 1996, 1998, and 2000 from the State of Ohio, which every two years has a capital projects fund for larger capital projects, renovation projects. I got small amounts of money during these three years and then the idea was that I thought I could get more money and more leverage from certain funders. It was not just representing one organization, but an entire consortium of West Side arts organizations. So Arcadia kind of morphed into something called the West Side Arts Consortium. And by this point, Jeff Ramsey and Bill Whitney made it clear to me that the Capitol movie theater was targeted... was something that they wanted to renovate. Near West Theatre, which is located in Ohio City right now on Bridge Avenue, thinking that this area could become sort of a hotspot of the arts because of the success of Cleveland Public Theatre, decided to also move to this area just west of here at 67th and Detroit. So Detroit Shoreway because of the Capitol movie theater, Near West because of their desire to build a brand-new theater, Spaces art gallery because of some renovations that they had in mind, and Art House, which is an art gallery in the Archwood-Denison [Brooklyn Centre] area, became part of the West Side Arts Consortium as all West Side non-profits who wanted to participate in capital projects. In 2000, too, we got some money, fifty thousand dollars from the State of Ohio, for the West Side Arts Consortium. Then it became clear to me that after many discussions with state legislators and other funders that it wasn't so much these disparate arts organizations in different parts of the West Side that had leverage. It was specific. My argument was much stronger if it was identified with a specific neighborhood. So the West Side Arts Consortium sort of evolved into a three-member consortium of the Gordon Square Arts District, which include the Near West Theatre, Detroit Shoreway with its Capitol movie theater, and CPT. And that's where we're at today.

Mark Souther [00:29:59] Can you back up just for a moment? I want to know a little bit more about the Y-Haven project. From what little I've read about it, it sounds as if it's an outgrowth of your involvement in social activism and desire to work with disadvantaged people, particularly the homeless?

James Levin [00:30:18] Yeah, we've been working with disadvantaged people since the inception of CPT back in the early '80s. I used to do regular workshops with Free Clinic, which had a space called... I had a youth theater group that I used to work with. I live in Ohio City right across from where used to be the Y-Haven at 32nd and Franklin before the Y closed down. And we did a outdoor Shakespeare production in Ohio City next to the county archives building back in nineteen... I think it was '99, '98 or '99. And I went to various nonprofit service organizations in Ohio City saying, Hey, we're doing this free Shakespeare production down the street. I think by then we were actually charging a few dollars, but I said if you say you're from May Dugan [Center] or you're from Catholic Women's Center or from the Y-Haven, just come in and say you're from the center and you get in for free. No questions asked. So a group of guys from the Y-Haven came to see Measure for Measure. And then I ran into Chip Joseph, their executive director, and I said, How'd the men like the show? They said they liked it, but they want to perform. They want you to know, they want to know if you'd be interested in working with them. They're all actors. They're hams. They want to be on stage themselves. And I said, oh, OK. So we started a program. Raymond Bobgan helped me this time, who is now the artistic director of Cleveland Public Theatre. We started working with the men in a very intensive way, two, three times a week, for several weeks, where we would just work on basic theater skills. Moving, speaking, telling stories. Then we kind of shifted it to telling their stories. So we did as something, we created a protocol of self-directed scenes where the men would tell their own story, but they weren't allowed to play themselves and we would set it up. So they would be telling very candid, poignant stories about their own... stories of how they became addicted or what they lost during their addiction or their deepest affliction point. And that point where they point where they discovered they had to turn their life around. So the men started telling their stories and we began to develop these stories in a very theatrical way. And then we would work with playwrights and then sculpt all of these stories into a play that we would do at Cleveland Public Theatre and then tour. And we've been doing that annually since 1999. It's one of the projects of which I'm really most proud. And they do beautiful work. And it touches the men very deeply and touches the people in the audience very deeply. So that really just evolved very organically out of the men wanting to get involved in theater.

Mark Souther [00:33:48] I want to move forward. This is sort of an overview. We perhaps in the future could come back and focus in on any one of these areas. I'm interested... I read the Cool Cleveland interview with you that Thomas Mulready did. And, for one thing, I wanted to ask, what year was that done? Do you remember? It's on the web, the Cool Cleveland...

James Levin [00:34:10] It was done... I think was done last year.

Mark Souther [00:34:16] Oh, just last year?

James Levin [00:34:17] It was done in early 2005.

Mark Souther [00:34:24] I was interested in knowing when it was because I was interested in your outlook about, you know, you talked about what the future might hold for Cleveland. You mentioned tourism, which is a personal interest of mine. I do research on tourism. In fact I have a book coming out on New Orleans this fall. I'm interested in your idea of Cleveland's tourist image, because you mentioned in that interview that Cleveland has really marketed itself as the rock and roll city. And you mentioned that you would like to see it moving in a different direction. So I'm interested in, you know, where you stand today on that.

James Levin [00:35:06] I think... I see with my work in the Ingenuity Festival, because I've been meeting more and more people, not so much in the arts field whom I've known already, but people in the field of the Internet technology and other sciences, the biomedical field and computer software and an amazing amount of creativity here. And I think I just wonder if people in most major cities, do they think that their city is somehow special and more gifted? I mean, maybe everybody thinks their city... Maybe that's why all like our own baseball teams. I don't know. But it seems that Cleveland has an inordinate amount of arts, quality arts, here and now I've become completely convinced that there is an amazing amount of entrepreneurial, creative spirit here across the board in science and technology. And I think Cleveland can recreate itself or is in the midst of recreating itself, not just as like the rock and roll city, but as a a place of heralded creativity in both realms of art and technology. And if... One of the missions or goals, I suppose, it's more of a goal, of Ingenuity is to foster an environment where artists and technology workers can collaborate, where technology people can showcase to the artists their creativity. What is going on in their labs right now, what's going on in their minds right now, and share it with people. Of course, I don't know, they might be worried about industrial secrets being stolen and this kind of stuff. I'm sure that's a fear. But if they could sure enough of that with the artist community. When I talk about artists I'm talking about video artists, sculptors, poets, cellists. It could be any type of art that can maybe go in and work with a technology worker and cr

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